Disappointed in 4e

[Zustiur]

The DMG is the book that tells you how to play the game.

Funny really. You'd expect the Player's Handbook to tell you how to play.

I'd expect the Dungeon Master's Guide to provide guidance to the dungeon master, maybe including things like... oh I don't know. Magic items?

 

[vagabundo]

Methinks the words: healing, damage, cure, hit points, wounds etc should be revamped.
There is another thread about the bard and some guy mentioning that the bard
heals you.. That just sounded wrong..

That would possibly be a slaughtered cow to many methinks.

Although, I'll concede, 4e makes very free and loose with these keywords and many others.

I think it might be best if people look on them not with their literal meaning but as an 4e mechanic. So 'healing' in this sense means singing a soothing song to increase morale, and as any Bear Grylls fan knows, morale is the key to surviving anything....

Funny really. You'd expect the Player's Handbook to tell you how to play.

I'd expect the Dungeon Master's Guide to provide guidance to the dungeon master, maybe including things like... oh I don't know. Magic items?

Magic items definatly need to be in the PHB - one of my favourite changes - and you certainly need the DMG is you are going to adujicate a 4e game. These rules are in the DMG becuase they are too powerful for a general all in one mechanic and need to be used on a case by case basis, but they are part of the 4e toolset.

If you have only the PHB then you only have a third of the game, the DMG and MM are all required to play 4e as you cannot play as just a character in a void.

 

[Fifth Element]

Funny really. You'd expect the Player's Handbook to tell you how to play.

Don't be so literal. DMs play the game too. And D&D by default has a DM at the table, so he needs to know how to be a DM. Pretty simple really. Previous editions' PHBs did no more to explain "how to play" than the 4E PHB.

I'd expect the Dungeon Master's Guide to provide guidance to the dungeon master, maybe including things like... oh I don't know. Magic items?

Why? The only reason I can see that you expect magic items to be in the DMG is because they have been there is previous editions.

 

[Shazman]

The DM can allow you to do damage with an Intimidate check.

If it brings your target to 0 HP, the DM can rule that he's dead. I would probably have him run in terror or cower in the corner, begging for mercy. Any way you describe it, he's not going to fight any more.

I have absolutely no desire to play a game where can do something as silly as cause hp damage with an intimidate check.

 

[Imaro]

Why? The only reason I can see that you expect magic items to be in the DMG is because they have been there is previous editions.

I do find it just a little ironic, that one of the features in this game is the ability to make a less magic item dependant campaign ( mostly DM's perogative) yet the magic items are in the PHB and it's even suggested that players give the DM a list of items they want (I'm really starting to think it's these little "suggestions" throughout 4e that give many a certain impression, and the authors really should have tried to be more neutral in their steering players and DM's...but that's another thread).

Personally I think DM's should control the level of magic in their campaigns...and thus the magic items, but I think it just boils down to preference. But then again, you just asked for a reason why magic items should be in the DMG as opposed to the PHB...Space considerations and campaign control.

 

[Mallus]

I have absolutely no desire to play a game where can do something as silly as cause hp damage with an intimidate check.

It's just a morale system. Think back to tabletop wargaming. Sometimes your squad of soldiers stops fighting because they got blown up by mortar fire. Sometimes they stop fighting because the broke ranks and ran.

 

[Shazman]

It's just a morale system. Think back to tabletop wargaming. Sometimes your squad of soldiers stops fighting because they got blown up by mortar fire. Sometimes they stop fighting because the broke ranks and ran.

The concept of hit points being all morale is stupid, and I don't think it belongs in D&D. Does a fireball or dragon's breath weapon damage you because it hurt your feelings or scared you? Does a sword in the gut hurt your morale only or just plain hurt? D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a tabletop wargame.

 

[Imaro]

It's just a morale system. Think back to tabletop wargaming. Sometimes your squad of soldiers stops fighting because they got blown up by mortar fire. Sometimes they stop fighting because the broke ranks and ran.

Uhm...I think there's a big difference between running away or surendering and dying. I think once you start letting things like an "intimidation" attack actually take hit points away...well then you've made people killable with skills, and this has pretty far reaching consequences in a campaign (this is also why I hate pg. 42 as the be all end all answer to everything since it's all about damage)...also how does this work for minions??

 

[Fifth Element]

The concept of hit points being all morale is stupid, and I don't think it belongs in D&D. Does a fireball or dragon's breath weapon damage you because it hurt your feelings or scared you? Does a sword in the gut hurt your morale only or just plain hurt? D&D is supposed to be an RPG, not a tabletop wargame.

Do we need to pull out the quotes from Mr. Gygax explaining that hit points in D&D do not represent only physical damage? This "stupid" concept has been a part of D&D since the beginning, and I doubt it will go away now.

And please note that some proportion of your hit points do represent physical damage, so you can have it both ways.

 

[Fifth Element]

Personally I think DM's should control the level of magic in their campaigns

I agree, but all the spells are always listed in the PHB, so if you want to restrict wizards, you're out of luck. Why does controlling the level of magic only refer to magic items? And just because the players want a magic item doesn't mean you're obliged to give it to them. The great majority of the time, players I've played with (with any edition) have known what magic items are available in the DMG. Doesn't mean they always got them. It's not like players have no idea how to get their hands on a DMG.

...and thus the magic items, but I think it just boils down to preference. But then again, you just asked for a reason why magic items should be in the DMG as opposed to the PHB...Space considerations and campaign control.

It does boil down to preference, but I didn't ask for a plausible reason why magic items could be in the DMG. I asked why the other poster expected they should be in the book, as if it were a given. There are arguments for either side. The post I was replying to presented it as an obvious truth that magic items belong in the DMG, with no reason given.