Disappointed in 4e

[Raven Crowking]

You brought him up, so I'd like to point out that the Hulkster used his Second Wind when the going got rough for him (cue wagging finger) and often benefitted from the Mouth of the South's Inspiring Word to get up when other wrestlers of his stature would have been three-counted (zero hit points).

Ah.....but I was talking about Hulk Hogan really engaged in combat, not engaged in a coreographed combat simulation.

I actually think that "Second Wind" and "Inspiring Word" are not bad ideas. RCFG has a "second wind" mechanic, after all, and a "shake it off" mechanic that blurs the distinction between "temporary" and "real" hit points. I just think that they are not well realized in 4e. They could be; lots of folks on EN World have suggested fixes that help these abilities considerably, IMHO.

But to label 4E's model of damage and healing as Absurd, Stupid, etc. (all words leveled against it in this thread) is telling others they are having badwrongfun. Even if you try to cover yourself by saying "the rules aren't Stupid/Absurd, they just lead to Stupid/Absurd results."

Nah. Enjoying/not being bothered by absurd results isn't wrongbadfun.

I was never bothered by the absurd results of 1e's falling damage rules. That doesn't make my enjoying 1e at the time wrongbadfun, nor does it make the falling damage results a whit less absurd.

BTW, though, as I am working on RCFG's definition of hit points, I have found this thread enormously useful in terms of refining that definition.......and I owe everyone here thanks for that.

Thanks.


RC

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up the house cat kills wizard. Housecats can make leathal attacks in D&D, at least in older editions. I have not looked up the stats for a housecat in 4th ED. Hmm, no 4th edition cats.

The point I am making is that the problems Raven Crowking and others have with 4th Edition, I and other I suspect had all along with previous editions of D&D and 4th edition has moved closer to what I have always viewed hit points as.

One thing that this thread has made me realise is that in the event of a partial TPK, it is valid for me to narrate the 'dead' party members as having survived, albeit with injuries that stop them from futher adventuring and may be they are embittered at being abandoned by their comrades and out for revenge.

Hmm, must add that to the plot file.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

double post

 

[mmadsen]

Keep in mind that 1 hp for one creature =/= 1 hp for another. Even 1 hp for the same creature =/= 1 hp for that same creature, depending upon hp total at the time.

Why do you keep repeating back to me what I just said?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Why do you keep repeating back to me what I just said?

Because you seem to forget it by the time you reach your next paragraph?

A is not B, but this example makes the whole thing totally ludicrous because A is B!

If you accept that hit points do not always represent the same amount of injury, there is no problem whatsoever in rationally adjudicating hit point recovery.


RC

 

[mmadsen]

If you accept that hit points do not always represent the same amount of injury, there is no problem whatsoever in rationally adjudicating hit point recovery.

That's exactly why hit-point recovery makes no sense. You have it upside-down. The first hit point represents a mere scratch on a superhero or a flesh wounds on an ordinary soldier, while the last hit point represents a serious injury on either of them. Why do all those very different injuries heal at the same rate?

Because hit points are inconsistent. We can devise ways to make them more consistent -- I mentioned a few earlier -- but they aren't consistent under any version of D&D.

 

[Fifth Element]

Because hit points are inconsistent. We can devise ways to make them more consistent -- I mentioned a few earlier -- but they aren't consistent under any version of D&D.

If I might make a prediction: "Yes they are, you're just looking at them wrong. Except in 4E."

 

[Lacyon]

When all hp are healed, there is no significant injury remaining.....but what is "significant" is variable based on total hit points possible. So, Bob, who was never very good at dodging blows, is not significantly impared by his unhealed wounds....he just isn't good enough for them to matter. Gary, on the other hand, might be somewhat impaired even though he is less wounded than Bob.

That sounds astonishingly like 4E, except that in 4E we allow even Gary the Mighty to be unimpaired by his unhealed wounds, should the situation call for it.

(Again with the "this is not where the paradigm has shifted".)

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Ah.....but I was talking about Hulk Hogan really engaged in combat, not engaged in a coreographed combat simulation.

While I was continuing along the Die Hard vein. A real version of Die Hard would be one short movie from the hero's POV.

I actually think that "Second Wind" and "Inspiring Word" are not bad ideas. RCFG has a "second wind" mechanic, after all, and a "shake it off" mechanic that blurs the distinction between "temporary" and "real" hit points. I just think that they are not well realized in 4e. They could be; lots of folks on EN World have suggested fixes that help these abilities considerably, IMHO.

I'd honestly be interested in seeing how these mechanics could be better realized. New ideas are always welcome at my table.

 

[billd91]

It takes the same amount of time to heal from a 10-hp elephant trampling, whether you started with 11 hit points or 50, even though the first is, say, a crushed thigh, and the second is some scrapes and bruises from jumping out of the way.

That is the point being made. Hit points heal at the same rate, despite the fact that they represent very different levels of injury -- across individuals with different numbers of total/max hit points, and within an individual, depending on the number of hit points remaining.

In 1st and 2nd edition, you'd be right. But that's where 3e made an improvement on the model. A 10 hp elephant trampling is healed in a single day by a 10th level fighter, but in 10 days by a 1st level fighter.