Disappointed in 4e

[Raven Crowking]

Most examples are, "Let's narrate something we know won't make sense and complain how 4e doesn't make sense!"

Those examples are like me saying 1e ran like this:

"The troll claw/claw/bites you for 14 damage. The troll warps into an anime rock star, Sailor Moon-style, and blasts you with his wicked axe wailing powers!"

I guess 1e is Sailor Moon, the RPG. Wow! Never realized that.

Please link to the example(s) you refer to here.


RC

 

[Lackhand]

The "most severe of wounds" denotes any wound which drops a character to 0 hp or below.

Really, do you honestly find this difficult?


RC

Only in proportion to the amount that 4e hp are a departure from this model. That is to say "not much" and "not much".

edit, expanding, so as to provide something useful:
Firstly, it's beginning to annoy me that people conflate Healing Surges with Second Winds. Healing surges are quite reasonable -- "the maximum amount which a body may knit wounds, ignore pain and blood-loss, and soldier on through adversity -- over the course of one day". I don't think anyone actually objects to those.

What people (seemingly, at least to me) object to is the concept of the Inspiring Word and the Second Wind.

They're actually different things!

 

[LostSoul]

Please link to the example(s) you refer to here.

Example 1 Why would you say, "I'm just fine now" if you took the axe to the face and it was bad news unless you want an absurd game?

Example 2 Why would you describe daggers hitting and hurting you badly, day-in, day-out, unless you want an absurd game?

Example 3 Why would you describe your PC - who's missing an arm - as being okay, unless you want an absurd game?

 

[mmadsen]

The "most severe of wounds" denotes any wound which drops a character to 0 hp or below.

Really, do you honestly find this difficult?

Yes, I'm finding this conversation quite difficult, RC, because you're systematically avoiding answering the questions I'm asking.

You scoffed at the notion that a cure light wounds spell would heal flesh wounds and said that light refers to a number of hit points. What does cure light wounds mean to the characters in the game world?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Example 1 Why would you say, "I'm just fine now" if you took the axe to the face and it was bad news unless you want an absurd game?

It is difficult to come up with examples of why something leads to absurd results without the example leading to an absurd result. It is all too easy to come up with examples of 4e's hp/healing paradigm leading to absurd results.

The nature of the 4e game system itself enforces avoiding role-playing of wounded status on the player in order to achieve success.

Put two groups of players after the same prize and facing the same challenges. One group role-plays wounded status, one does not.

In 1e, the group that rps wounding has a serious advantage over the one that does not.

In 4e, the group that does not rp wounding has a serious advantage over the one that does.

It is not wrongbadfun to rp wounding in 4e (obviously), and doing so can cause the players to self-limit themselves from using everything available to their characters, but the game system itself penalizes this self-limitation.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes, I'm finding this conversation quite difficult, RC, because you're systematically avoiding answering the questions I'm asking.

You scoffed at the notion that a cure light wounds spell would heal flesh wounds and said that light refers to a number of hit points. What does cure light wounds mean to the characters in the game world?

You apparently missed my response, despite responding to it:

A spell that is able to heal some wounds magically, but is not able to fully recover the most severe of wounds. It is less likely to heal all of your wounds than cure moderate wounds, and even less likely to heal all of your wounds than cure serious wounds.

Of course, how much aid any such spell gives a particular individual is for the gods to decide.....or blind chance, if you believe some sages.

You then had me define what "the most severe of wounds" meant. In game terms, dropping to 0 hp or less. In the game world, any wound that would take a character out of a combat, rendering him unconscious and/or dying.

So much for systematic avoidance........

Of course, if you really do think that coming up with such a response is difficult..... Well, let's just say that I doubt very much that you really have such a difficulty using hit points in the 1e paradigm.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

What people (seemingly, at least to me) object to is the concept of the Inspiring Word and the Second Wind.

They're actually different things!

That's a fair call.

I would agree that falling damage as a subsystem can lead to absurd results, and if you wish to say that the fault in 4e is not in the hp paradigm, but in the Inspiring Word and the Second Wind subsystems, I'm fine with that.........so long as you engage in episodic play only. The minute campaign play enters the picture, the idea that a good night's rest heals all wounds.......meh.

"Every hp lost represents some level of physical damage" and "Any hp lost represents anything you want it to represent" is still a major paradigm shift, IMHO, and that is my core argument in this thread (despite being lead into asides).


RC

 

[Lacyon]

"Every hp lost represents some level of physical damage" and "Any hp lost represents anything you want it to represent" is still a major paradigm shift, IMHO, and that is my core argument in this thread (despite being lead into asides).

That shift hasn't happened outside of some players and DMs deciding to make it so for their own games.

(The shift that has happened is that every hp restored needn't represent the physical healing of some injury.)

 

[LostSoul]

It is difficult to come up with examples of why something leads to absurd results without the example leading to an absurd result. It is all too easy to come up with examples of 4e's hp/healing paradigm leading to absurd results.

So 1e is anime, leading to Sailor Moon-style attacks?

What I am looking for is validation of your retcon claim. I'm not the one trying to prove the point - you are. If you can come up with an example that is absurd - and must be absurd, due to the mechanics - then let's hear it.

Otherwise, I don't want to hear about the retconning stuff.

The nature of the 4e game system itself enforces avoiding role-playing of wounded status on the player in order to achieve success.

Put two groups of players after the same prize and facing the same challenges. One group role-plays wounded status, one does not.

In 1e, the group that rps wounding has a serious advantage over the one that does not.

In 4e, the group that does not rp wounding has a serious advantage over the one that does.

It is not wrongbadfun to rp wounding in 4e (obviously), and doing so can cause the players to self-limit themselves from using everything available to their characters, but the game system itself penalizes this self-limitation.

That's quite the claim. Why do you think that?

Let's say that the PCs are in Thunderspire Labyrinth. They just destroyed a Temple of Torog (the King that Crawls) and are trying to find their way back, alive, with as many rescued prisoners as possible.

The challenges: wandering monsters and high-risk, high-reward lairs.

How does 4e give a serious advantage to not roleplaying injuries?

 

[Lackhand]

That's a fair call.

I would agree that falling damage as a subsystem can lead to absurd results, and if you wish to say that the fault in 4e is not in the hp paradigm, but in the Inspiring Word and the Second Wind subsystems, I'm fine with that.........so long as you engage in episodic play only. The minute campaign play enters the picture, the idea that a good night's rest heals all wounds.......meh.

"Every hp lost represents some level of physical damage" and "Any hp lost represents anything you want it to represent" is still a major paradigm shift, IMHO, and that is my core argument in this thread (despite being lead into asides).


RC

I think there's still a disconnect here. I'm with you that a good night's rest shouldn't heal all wounds -- but that's still a third issue beside the Healing Surge thing. Consider the following worlds:

1) As in 1e, you have your total X HP and precisely 0 healing surges. You cannot benefit from Healing Word, Inspiring Word, or Second Wind; however, the 2nd level Cleric Utility can still restore hit points. Certain rare elixirs can also restore hit points, but consume a daily use of a magic item.

That's a 4e gloss on the 1e system. It doesn't mention normal hit point recovery, only magical healing -- we'd need some sort of rule for recovering hit points in the absence of magical healing -- it could be all (which I'd object to, but there's no reason for it not to be from a game mechanic perspective -- the issue is orthogonal to how 'in game' healing is done!) or it could be 1 hp per day or week or month -- or something in between.

Hit points represent... well, something. What they represent is determined by the out of combat way in which they're healed, since magic is magic and tells us nothing. I'd argue that if they come back overnight, they're morale (but why can't nonmagic restore them?!) and if they come back at the rate of 1/month, they're meat points, though severities of wounds correspond to the proportion of hit points of the target that they consume, not the total damage. You still probably shouldn't be describing accidental dismemberment too casually -- limbs just can't get lopped off in D&D because hit points get in the way of that.

2) As in 4e, you have your total X HP and some relatively small number of healing surges -- between 5 and 15. You can second wind, you can benefit from a few kind words from someone who knows how to motivate, the whole schlemiel.

You can get brought down to 0 hp -- you can even die from it! -- but the round before you die, a few kind words can patch you up and get you back into the fight. If the body is under sufficient duress, not even those words will help -- pure divine magic must be used, or perhaps nothing will work.

This is not in and of itself ridiculous: adventurers have 3 near death experiences before breakfast, and it does not astound me that they'd be able to rally, quickly, from the brink of death and be back to their ornery hellfire-spitting ways.

What I think is flatly ridiculous is the "all better the next morning" system. That's disjoint from second winds et al: even with full hit points, it would not disturb me overmuch so long as healing surges were limited. They're not in core, though, so what follows is houserule:

My suggestion is to have surges be restored at the rate of 1 per night, or 2 per night in the care of a healer or bed rest, or 4 per full day of bed-rest or light (nonadventuring!) activity in the care of a healer.

It's still too quick, but there's usually a cleric or medic in the party on whom we can rely to handwave the speedy recovery.