Disappointed in 4e

[JoeGKushner]

Annoying image macro removed by Rel

 

[Herremann the Wise]

...Yep, after an extended rest you're back up to full power. It fits nicely with the movie style injury, where even when they're bad, they heal astonishingly quickly.

I can see that if you want long heal times (by default) then it might not be to your tastes, but I'd be willing to guess WoTCs research showed most people don't, so they sped it up. They could have easily made full recovery longer and still used the exact same HP system.

the system, hwoever, does not lead to absurd narration instances, unless you ignore elements of the system in order to force it to

It really comes down to suspension of disbelief. If you're playing cinematically, then this won't be a distraction. For some though, this circumstance is absolutely horrid! To each their own - agree to disagree and all that. RC, this argument is just going to keep happening like it did on the other thread. That's why I kept out of this one, I said all I needed to on the previous one.

Thats true of all editions.

Correct. D&D (IMO) has never fixed the prime issue with hit points. I started a thread yesterday with my "solution" to hit points. You may find it clever or silly - I don't think there will ever be a mechanic that keeps everyone happy.

Funnily enough, I think they have made a step forwards (and backwards at the same time) with 4E. Narratively speaking, there is abstract freedom in how 4E interprets hit points and that is something I've come to see as a really good thing (my mind was changed on this in the mechanics vs flavor thread). It is just when you try to contemplate the physical damage involved that you start to muddy the waters. In 4E you never take a serious enough injury that you are not back to your best the next day - unless of course you die from it, then the next day's kind of a bummer. Ari has come up with a good fix for this I think in his Advanced Players Guide.

You can make any rule lead to absurdity if you start out with the intention of doing so. Imagination is funny like that.

I disagree to a point. Sometimes the absurdity in a rule is easier to find than not. Perhaps that is more the issue than whether an absurdity exists (or not) - at least in breaking a players suspension of disbelief.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Fifth Element]

OK, granted that I was being a smidgeon glib, but please tell me for the record how long Rob must rest to remove those last traces of a deadly injury, assuming no recourse to magical healing?

Next morning, right as rain?

This is just a matter of degree though. If the 4E rules stated that you regained 1/4 of your hp per day, would that be better? That way, it would take 4 days of rest to recover your hp. That's probably closer to "reality".

But look at it from the opposite end. Take a 100-hp fighter who takes a 10-hp wound. This is clearly a minor wound, a mere scratch. For each of 1E, 2E, 3E and 4E, how long does it take him to recover from this very minor wound, assuming no access to healing magic? I think 4E wins over 1E in the "reality" department in this case. In 1E it would be over a week before the fighter was back in top fighting shape. Why so long for such a tough bugger to recover from a mere scratch?

It's all in how you choose to look at it.

 

[Shadeydm]

Take a 100-hp fighter who takes a 10-hp wound. This is clearly a minor wound, a mere scratch. For each of 1E, 2E, 3E and 4E, how long does it take him to recover from this very minor wound, assuming no access to healing magic? I think 4E wins over 1E in the "reality" department in this case. In 1E it would be over a week before the fighter was back in top fighting shape. Why so long for such a tough bugger to recover from a mere scratch?

It's all in how you choose to look at it.

Clearly to who, it seems to me that you are making assumptions about the narrative. What you are describing as a mere scratch I might have described as a spear through the thigh. So why couldn't it take a week to fully recover from that without magical healing?

 

[mmadsen]

Clearly to who, it seems to me that you are making assumptions about the narrative. What you are describing as a mere scratch I might have described as a spear through the thigh.

A 100-hp fighter takes a 10-hp wound, and you'd describe that as a spear through the thigh? So, with one spear through each arm and each leg he'd still be well above half his hit points? And unfazed.

Wow.

 

[FireLance]

A 100-hp fighter takes a 10-hp wound, and you'd describe that as a spear through the thigh? So, with one spear through each arm and each leg he'd still be well above half his hit points? And unfazed.

Yes. He's actually throwing his support behind the idea that characters can grit their teeth and fight on despite severe physical injuries, as long as they have sufficient reserves of luck, morale and resolve. Just like in 4e.

 

[Hussar]

/snip


EDIT: Hypertext SRD: What Hit Points Represent

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

While creative quoting to prove a point does seem to be all the rage these days, it's interesting that RC ignores the line RIGHT ABOVE the one he quoted:

Injury and Death

Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.

Loss Of Hit Points

The most common way that your character gets hurt is to take lethal damage and lose hit points.

What Hit Points Represent

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

So, yes, right in the SRD it states that your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. They do go on and say more. Some tangible, and some not tangible. If you are terrified (by say being intimidated) how does that not affet your ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one?

 

[Fifth Element]

Clearly to who, it seems to me that you are making assumptions about the narrative. What you are describing as a mere scratch I might have described as a spear through the thigh. So why couldn't it take a week to fully recover from that without magical healing?

Previously in this hit point discussion (over various threads), such a wound (the first few hps lost from a large hp total) was described as being minor. So I was bringing it forward from previous discussion.

Regardless of how it's described narratively, it is a minor wound because it causes no significant change in your fighting ability.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yes. He's actually throwing his support behind the idea that characters can grit their teeth and fight on despite severe physical injuries, as long as they have sufficient reserves of luck, morale and resolve. Just like in 4e.

Yes, that's fair enough.

 

[Hussar]

Previously in this hit point discussion (over various threads), such a wound (the first few hps lost from a large hp total) was described as being minor. So I was bringing it forward from previous discussion.

Regardless of how it's described narratively, it is a minor wound because it causes no significant change in your fighting ability.

Given the way hit points work, ALL wounds, other than the one that brings you below zero are minor and easily ignored. Trying to narrate a "spear through the thigh" for any wound other than one that brings you below zero is mismatching the narration to the actual events in the game.

Now, a spear through the thigh could easily be a wound that brings you to death's door. Sure, lying on the ground bleeding out because of a massive wound is fitting the narrative to the event.

But, if I have 100 hit points, and take 99 points of damage (and make my massive death save) that wound is just a scratch because it in no way affects me or my performance.