Disarm rules

[generalhenry]

They didn't rip anything off.

But they did borrow heavily

Tank
Dps
Healer

v

defender
striker
leader
controller

It's not quite 1-1 and it flowed both ways. WoW borrowed from D&D.
#1 by accident. With 4E WotC is trying to repeat the success of WoW in PnP form.

 

[keterys]

Sigh. There are some concepts that were learned from WoW, certainly, but you're only digging yourself deeper with flawed arguments.

Don't try to make an argument that something is borrowed from another game that was
A) already present in the game
B) the borrowing was in reverse
C) is a standard game design element common to games for a decade or more
etc.

That is to say, I would suggest that you cease trying to make any WoW to D&D analogies until you actually have researched each point you're trying to make. You might be surprised.

 

[bluto68]

Just to verify, is this like how Lord of the Rings is based on Star Wars again?

Stupid D&D stealing the idea for arcane missiles from WoW. And calling it Magic Missile, too. How obvious a ripoff can you get?

<yoda>Not lost on me your sarcism is</yoda>

 

[generalhenry]

Sigh. There are some concepts that were learned from WoW, certainly, but you're only digging yourself deeper with flawed arguments.

Then counter them, your post is vary vague.

Don't try to make an argument that something is borrowed from another game that was
A) already present in the game
B) the borrowing was in reverse
C) is a standard game design element common to games for a decade or more
etc.

I'll try to stick to a narrow focus.

The standard for death, as set by D&D was the loss of a level.
Everquest copied that flawed bit of design.
WoW broke the mold and improved the design.
4E is influenced by WoW and copied that part of WoW's design.

That is to say, I would suggest that you cease trying to make any WoW to D&D analogies until you actually have researched each point you're trying to make. You might be surprised.

You mean like listening to the designers talk about being influenced by WoW?

3E + MMO design + Minitures design = 4E

Yes there are original elements but the majority of what makes 4E different from 3E is based on lessons learned from MMOs. I focus on WoW because it's the most influential.


The Minitures design is also a factor. In minitures play it's essential to limit options, and limit conditions.
Disarmed isn't a condition that works in a minitures game.



Anyways I've taken us off topic.

The basic answer to take any action in combat you need a power. And there is no universal disarm power. There is a level 17 fighter power.

The reason way is a ten page flame fest, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[keterys]

Then counter them, your post is vary vague.

I don't counter every mistake on the internet. It's a fruitless task.

Anyhow, to help a little:

The standard for death, as set by D&D was the loss of a level.
Everquest copied that flawed bit of design.
WoW broke the mold and improved the design.
4E is influenced by WoW and copied that part of WoW's design.

World of Warcraft was released November of 2004.

I've played in games where we didn't lose levels in the 80s. Even just looking at 3e for a couple examples, http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/TGM_DeadHeroes.asp was written in 2002 and is very similar to 4e's method. Of course, True Resurrection was in the base 3e Player's Handbook in 2000 and you also just lost money for that but no level. I know we were cheerfully ponying up for that at even fairly low levels.

You mean like listening to the designers talk about being influenced by WoW?

You might want to listen more closely. Quite by accident I remember almost everything they've said about the commonalities, and it's mostly in a theoretical sense (Make the game easier to jump into, to understand, etc). If you look closely, you'll also see the influence of card games and eurogames.

3E + MMO design + Minitures design = 4E

This would be an example of a short-sighted statement.

Yes there are original elements but the majority of what makes 4E different from 3E is based on lessons learned from MMOs. I focus on WoW because it's the most influential.

It is certainly the most popular, by far.

The Minitures design is also a factor. In minitures play it's essential to limit options, and limit conditions.

In order to make the game run more smoothly, sure...

Disarmed isn't a condition that works in a minitures game.

It easily could, much as it works in WoW. It works less well in D&D because the weapons are highly magic and intrinsic for the success of the PC, not because it's hard to model.

 

[webrunner]

As a DM, according to the DMG, if someone says "I want to try to Disarm that guy" you aren't supposed to say "no you can't", you're supposed to use page DMG42 and say "yes". There's an example given for kicking an ogre into a brazier, using str vs fortitude.

I'd say a disarm would be, you have to do a grab attempt, then str vs fortitude.

 

[keterys]

Yep, use p42 - figure out how hard it should be such that it compares reasonably to other options. If you want a standard solution, you need it to be on par with taking -9 attack and -15 damage at 30th level, say.

Which is... a bunch.

 

[generalhenry]

It's a fruitless task.

yep.

I don't think we really disagree that much. So let me take one last stab.

4E is a shift is design philosophy.

3E focuses on modeling the fantasy world.
4E focuses on game play in the fantasy world.

The focus is on the player experience. There where many influences, but imo the two greatest influences where D&D minitures (the sister product) and WoW (the industry titan).

I've played in games where we didn't lose levels in the 80s.

True, but the WoW is the 500 pound gorilla that is changing the industry. Popularizing is often more important than creating.

Microsoft did not create the GUI, but they did popularize it. As a result Unix, the older OS, now tends to use GUIs.

If you look closely, you'll also see the influence of card games and eurogames.

Fair enough, WoW is simply the largest and easiest to see imo.



But we're getting dangerously close to the taboo topic. 4E vs. 3E and so I'll leave with two points I think we agree on.

There where outside influences on the design.
Disarm is an ugly game mechanic.

 

[generalhenry]

DMG42

The problem I see there is that it covers actions that you can't do with existing powers. But in this case there is an existing power. Should we really let players parrot powers using DMG42?

 

[Wormwood]

3E focuses on modeling the fantasy world.
4E focuses on game play in the fantasy world.

The focus is on the player experience.

Better than I could have put it, and I think you're dead-on there.