Discontinuity: 3e and D&D

[ThirdWizard]

Plot is a fictional device , I like to play games. As DM I'm much happier building a setting where the players get to romp about in and contribute to, over being railroaded along a predefined plot.

Eh? Isn't "PCs are lords at 9th level" a predefined plot built into previous editions railroading PCs into responsibilities that they may or may not want?

There are many differences with the way the game is approached. That is one of them. Another would be the idea that wizards arn't supposed to be more powerful than everyone else, or halflings arn't so much like hobbits.

 

[Silverleaf]

Eh? Isn't "PCs are lords at 9th level" a predefined plot built into previous editions railroading PCs into responsibilities that they may or may not want?

Actually it's not a requirement, just a general suggestion. If the PC doesn't want to build a castle and attract followers at name level, he can just keep adventuring. The only requirement is you have to be 9th level or higher. Of course, after 9th level you don't roll for hit points anymore (most classes just get 1 or 2 hp/level at that point, and no CON bonus anymore), and it takes a tremendous amount of XPs to reach the next level when you get that high. So eventually, a lot of folks will happily do the stronghold+followers thing, if only so they can retire their character in style. But they might not do so until 14th level, or whatever feels right.
However, there's something else at play here too: demihuman level limits. In Basic D&D, halflings, elves and dwarves are capped at level 8, 10 and 12 respectively. That means halflings never get to become great rulers to the same extent as the other races (though a Wish spell might fix that and allow a halfling to reach 9th level, at DM's discretion). [side note: in Basic D&D (and unlike AD&D), the level cap is only one of two methods for balancing demihumans; they also require more XPs to level up... elves take forever but they also have most of the abilities of both fighters & magic-users, and they can even cast spells in armor, with no penalty.] I don't remember the AD&D level caps, but I'm fairly certain most of them are lower than name level, thus ensuring that humans remain the true military & political leaders.

 

[ThirdWizard]

There was a fun little (variant?) rule (in the 2E DMG I think) that allowed demihumans to level further than their level limit if their prime requisite(s) was high enough. This makes me think, though. I hear all these stories about people's 2E high level characters, ranging in the 30s and 40s, and I have to wonder if they were all human.

Still, I don't see how 3E can be assumed to have a higher amount of railroading in it, especially since one of the main design goals was giving the players more options.

 

[Akrasia]

There was a fun little (variant?) rule (in the 2E DMG I think) that allowed demihumans to level further than their level limit if their prime requisite(s) was high enough...

The Rules Cylcopedia has an optional rule that allows demi-humans to progress to level 36 (just like humans).

The core rules for the B/X/C/M and RC versions of D&D also have 'attack ranks' for demi-humans, which effectively gives them additional levels beyond their level limits (but not additional hit points).

 

[S'mon]

ThirdWizard - IMC 1e AD&D, either the high level PCs started human, or they started as elves and used Wishes to become human once they hit the level cap.

Actually, Thrin doesn't like to be reminded he was once an elf...

 

[ThirdWizard]

ThirdWizard - IMC 1e AD&D, either the high level PCs started human, or they started as elves and used Wishes to become human once they hit the level cap.

Actually, Thrin doesn't like to be reminded he was once an elf...

lol, love it

I actually never had a 2E game get to 9th level. No party survived that long in the 8 or however many years I played it.

 

[Storm Raven]

Except now you can cast an Empowered Maximised fireball, so I think spells have kept pace with fighter attacks ok.

As an 8th level spell. I generally have better things to do with my 8th level spell slots than casting hopped up 3rd level spells. You may want to revise your view on the idea that metamagic feats help a wizard "keep up".

 

[Storm Raven]

d02 ain't D&D.

heck, i'd go so far as to say 1edADnD ain't D&D.

Yes, but you established long ago that your opinion is extremely idiosyncratic, and of not much value in a discussion like this (simply repeating a point everyone has heard you make before over and over again doesn't bring much to the table).

 

[Quasqueton]

Dungeons & Dragons [current edition] is the one true game. All previous editions were just attempts to achieve this level of excellence.

OD&D was concept notes.
BD&D was alpha.
AD&D1 was beta.
AD&D2 was beta revised.
D&D3 went gold.
D&D3.5 is gold revised.

D&D has reached this stage of excellence due to a 30-year development cycle with expansive play testing.

Quasqueton

 

[fanboy2000]

Dungeons & Dragons [current edition] is the one true game. All previous editions were just attempts to achieve this level of excellence.

OD&D was concept notes.
BD&D was alpha.
AD&D1 was beta.
AD&D2 was beta revised.
D&D3 went gold.
D&D3.5 is gold revised.

D&D has reached this stage of excellence due to a 30-year development cycle with expansive play testing.

Quasqueton

Now we know where Microsoft got their business model from.