Discovery Trailer

[MarkB]

Personally, I'm predicting no time-travel solution to this problem. Nor a strictly military one. This is going to revolve around Ash / Voq and the nature of Klingon culture.

 

[Bagpuss]

We know the Klingons aren't going to win. That's a given. Prequel and all.

They have established multiple parallel universes/timelines who to know they don't decide this one is a different one than the either of the other Star Treks?

 

[Jester David]

They have established multiple parallel universes/timelines who to know they don't decide this one is a different one than the either of the other Star Treks?

They absolutely could. But one of the selling features of the series was that it was in the Prime timeline of the past TV shows.

 

[Staffan]

Jumping to the Mirror Universe for four episodes is another pretty giant storyarc that, again, takes a previously seen element of the series (the Terran Empire) and turns up the scope to 11. We see the Emperor and they die. There's a mass revolution. The entire politics of the universe is upended.

I get the feeling that coups are not exactly uncommon in the Terran Empire. Emperors come and go, but the Empire remains. We know from previous encounters with the Terrans that assassination is a common method of advancing, and we even see the guy now commanding the Shengzhou trying to assassinate Burnham in order to keep his command.

Well, until Mirror!Spock has a chat with Prime!Kirk and convinces the Empire that they're on a bad path, which leads to them getting conquered by the Klingons and Cardassians. It's possible that the aftermath of this coup provided the opportunity for Mirror!Spock to seize power.

That said, four episodes in a row is more than any previous series has spent on the Mirror Universe. TOS only had the one episode. DS9 had five, but they all took place in different seasons, and Enterprise had a two-parter that was pretty much self-contained.

 

[Jester David]

Interesting episode. And MarkB might be right in that a solution other than time travel might be involved.

Given we have seen Qo'nos on TNG and DS9 we should know that they're not going to scourge the planet. But that still assumes they're uncomfortable making major breaks from canon. I am hopefully that this is just setting up Burnham and Saru drawing a line in the sand between dying like Starfleet rather than living like the Terran Empire.

It still seems odd to have the Klingons act so... non-Klingon. Killing civilians and suicide runs don't seem very honourable.

Honestly, I just enjoyed the parallels/ subversions in this past episode. Sarek being advised to do something extreme and non-Starfleet, Saru being the decisive captain, a Starfleet officer being isolated in the mess, etc.
Which does suggest that things are going to continue with the full circle next episode, with Burnham betraying and disobeying her captain but this time to maintain the principles of Starfleet. And thus redeeming herself.

 

[Ryujin]

Interesting episode. And MarkB might be right in that a solution other than time travel might be involved.

Given we have seen Qo'nos on TNG and DS9 we should know that they're not going to scourge the planet. But that still assumes they're uncomfortable making major breaks from canon. I am hopefully that this is just setting up Burnham and Saru drawing a line in the sand between dying like Starfleet rather than living like the Terran Empire.

It still seems odd to have the Klingons act so... non-Klingon. Killing civilians and suicide runs don't seem very honourable.

Honestly, I just enjoyed the parallels/ subversions in this past episode. Sarek being advised to do something extreme and non-Starfleet, Saru being the decisive captain, a Starfleet officer being isolated in the mess, etc.
Which does suggest that things are going to continue with the full circle next episode, with Burnham betraying and disobeying her captain but this time to maintain the principles of Starfleet. And thus redeeming herself.

In TOS, which this is supposed to be a prelude to, the Klingons were far from an honourable species. They were the stand-ins for the fears held regarding the Soviet Union (the Romulans for the People's Republic of China) and their characterization was coloured by that. The 'honourable Klingon' didn't appear until TNG. So, based on the feelings about the Klingon Empire 'at the time', they're acting quite Klingon.

 

[Mallus]

Meant to reply to this earlier. Oops.

Burnham was always *the* protagonist, but I was hoping the rest of the cast might be important in ways other than plot elements. Anyone not related to Burnham's character arc is a cypher and lucky to even have a name…

It certainly looked this way for a while, but I think the show's moved past being Burnham's story exclusively. Tilly and Saru clearly have their own story arcs, and even the semi-nameless bridge crew have gotten some lines. Why their names have even been spoken aloud! (and not determinable solely from the credits - which was a problem).

I've also said repeatedly, Tilly's role in the story is to be bonded to and die at Tyler/Loq's hands in order to drive Burnham to move past her affection and kill him. (Likely with last words related to "at least I got to be Captain… for a little while…") I'm now expanding that prediction to alternatively include Lorca. And Stamet is also likely fated to die so the secrets of the Spore Drive are lost.

I'm pretty confident Tilly, Saru, and Stamets will be around for season 2. I'm not sure they would have survived Fuller original design for Discovery - i.e. the anthology series -- but I doubt they're going anywhere now. Well, maybe one of them will go out in a blaze of cheap, overwritten drama. Admittedly, that's been a persistent issue.

(Of course, he also wanted the show to be an anthology series, with each season set in a different era. That would have been lovely, albeit likely expensive. We're left to only imagine the adventures of the Discovery-A in 2275, Discovery-B in 2300, and the Discovery-C in 2325…)

I would have loved to see his version of the show. But I can see how that structure would have raised the show's cost from "a big gamble" to "inarguably prohibitive". Each season being a commentary and expansion of a different era of Trek, complete with its one theme/set of themes could have been fantastic.

Another persistent problem with the Discovery we actually got is it has no answer to the question: why is it a prequel to TOS? Absent the original plan for the series, there really isn't one.

I am curious (morbidly curious?) and uncertain where things are going.

That's what keeps me interested. Despite the missteps and bad plotting/writing, I am legitimately surprised by something pretty much every episode. I didn't expect from a Trek show. Case in point, I was somewhat disappointed by the final episode in the Mirror Universe, but I didn't see Burnham saving/kidnapping Empress Georgiou coming - prolly should have, but didn't.

As for this week's ep., I found it much better. Saru makes a good captain. Tilly's response to Ash in the mess hall was so, so Starfleet, and Burnham's scene with Ash looked like it was going to be a trainwreck, until it became something else. Nuanced, graceful, topical even. Believable, despite the gonzo sci-fi setup.

And I didn't see Mirror Georgiou being trotted out in a Starfleet uniform, complete with absurd cover story, either. While I admit that also probably counts as cheap, plot-y drama, it totally worked for me - I think because the episode really sold the Federation's desperation. The actress playing the admiral did a great job. Almost coming unglued, but not quite (if this were TOS she would have wolfed down a generous helping of scenery).

 

[Mallus]

It still seems odd to have the Klingons act so... non-Klingon. Killing civilians and suicide runs don't seem very honourable.

This is one of the ways -- intentionally or not, though I'm pretty sure it is, mostly -- Star Trek (including but not limited to Discovery) winds up being realistic.

There is a large gap between the stated Klingon identity and their actions. In other words, like every other group, their cultural/historical narrative is at least partially a lie they tell themselves (and others). Frequently disproven by the actual historical record.

TNG makes this pretty clear. A lot of what we hear about Klingons comes from Worf, the guy raised by human parents in the Federation. An idealized, at best second-hand version of who they are. Contrast that with the machinations surrounding the Klingon succession, the Duras sisters, the Khitomer cover-up, etc. The audience sees the Klingon relationship to honor is... complicated.

 

[Jester David]

In TOS, which this is supposed to be a prelude to, the Klingons were far from an honourable species. They were the stand-ins for the fears held regarding the Soviet Union (the Romulans for the People's Republic of China) and their characterization was coloured by that. The 'honourable Klingon' didn't appear until TNG. So, based on the feelings about the Klingon Empire 'at the time', they're acting quite Klingon.

TOS also looked like humans in blackface. If they're meant to be identical to TOS Klingons, shouldn't they also look like them?

Plus, it's set after Enterprise, which retained the honourable Klingons seen in TNG (and hinted at in Search for Spock).


Being set before TOS isn't a free licence to change details. Klingons in TOS didn't really have a culture. They were just bland generic evil. TNG made them a rounded species. A fan favourite beloved by many.


Discovery is also freely taking other elements of TNG Klingons. Like the logo, the great houses, batleth, the home planet of Qon'os, etc. It's picking and choosing the lore it wants to keep. Which I strongly dislike.

At least when Disney decided to make more Star Wars films and didn't want to be saddled with extra continuity they had the balls to come out and admit they were declaring the EU non-canon. If Paramount doesn't want to have to deal with Trek lore beyond the Original Series they need to cowboy up and just declare TNG onward non-canon.

 

[Ryujin]

TOS also looked like humans in blackface. If they're meant to be identical to TOS Klingons, shouldn't they also look like them?

Plus, it's set after Enterprise, which retained the honourable Klingons seen in TNG (and hinted at in Search for Spock).


Being set before TOS isn't a free licence to change details. Klingons in TOS didn't really have a culture. They were just bland generic evil. TNG made them a rounded species. A fan favourite beloved by many.


Discovery is also freely taking other elements of TNG Klingons. Like the logo, the great houses, batleth, the home planet of Qon'os, etc. It's picking and choosing the lore it wants to keep. Which I strongly dislike.

At least when Disney decided to make more Star Wars films and didn't want to be saddled with extra continuity they had the balls to come out and admit they were declaring the EU non-canon. If Paramount doesn't want to have to deal with Trek lore beyond the Original Series they need to cowboy up and just declare TNG onward non-canon.

I'm trying to limit my contributions to this thread to things that don't tear "Discovery" a new one, as I don't like it and am no longer watching it