D&D 5E Discussing Mr Rhexx Homebrew Armor

[Chaosmancer]

So, I've seen two videos now, one from Mr. Rhexx and one from, I believe it was the Dungeon Coach (who had talked to Mr Rhexx) and they both designed a homebrew armor system with the same basic rules. And Mr Rhexx just released a video announcing this and saying he's playtested this system over three campaigns, but.... I don't think it would actually do many of the things he is claiming it does.

Now, I'd test it, but all the games I have that sort of control over ATM are with brand new players and I've got no space to try messing with the rules. So, I figured the next best thing was to talk about it here, because... I don't know. I feel like there is a good idea here, but that this fundamentally doesn't work as designed.

Now, to be even more fair, I've not purchased his rule set, so maybe there are details missing from his explanation in the video, but here is the basics that I've got.

All AC is 10+Dex mod. If a monster attacks you and rolls less than 10 + dex mod, they miss you.

Putting on armor does not actually increase your AC, instead it gives you damage reduction.

Now, I want to pause here for a second. I think Dungeon Coaches proposed rules were that if the attack hits between your 10+dex mod and the AC the Armor would give you, then it still hits and you get the damage reduction, but you take full damage if it is over the Armor Class of the Armor. Mr. Rhexx's seems to be that AC is always 10+Dex mod and that getting hit at all while wearing armor gives you the damage. However, the damage reduction is "minimum 1"

Shields still increase AC as normal. Magical armor gives a +1 to AC and +1 to the damage reduction.


So... it would work like this, and I want to focus on Rhexx's rules for right now, because they are just simpler.

If a Rogue with a +4 Dex puts on Studded Leather armor, they have an AC of 14 and a damage reduction of 2 (12-10 = 2). If an attack would roll below a 14, they dodge. If it is over 14, they take the hit, but reduce the damage by 2.

The Paladin on the other hand, with a Dex of 10 has an AC of 10, and if they put on Platemail and a shield, then their AC increases to 12, and they have a damage reduction of 8.

Now, he claims this makes the Paladin "really feel like a tank" because they reduce the incoming damage so much, but they are getting hit constantly. And here is where I find my big initial problem with the base system. Let us say that these are mid-level adventurers. They are fighting an Owlbear, pretty standard. The Rogue still has an AC of 14, and with the Owlbear's +7 to hit, they are getting hit about 70% of the time, for nearly full damage. But, the Rogue could have only had +2 more AC, which would have dropped it to 60%. Meanwhile, the Paladin has an AC of 12, meaning that they are getting hit 80% of the time, and while they are reducing the damage by 8, the Owlbear averages 10 and 14 damage respectively, meaning that they are still taking 8 damage on average every turn. Meanwhile the rogue is not getting hit.

So, to me, while you take very little damage, at low-levels where you don't have a lot of health, you are just going to get smashed while the rogue is going to be doing about the same, and dodging attacks. (Also of note, Shield of faith and similar spells are supposed to increase the DR, not AC)

But, unless you start adding magical armor, this is it, these are the best armors. So what happens at CR 10 or so? Let's take a Behir, CR 11 and assume that the normal ASI progression has occured. The Rogue has maxed Dex, and the Paladin has focused on Cha, Con and Str. Rogue's AC is 15, with 2 DR. Paladin's AC is 12, with 8 DR

A Behir has an attack mod of +10. Now, the rogue, again, is not too far off from where they were before. They are only down two AC, and they are taking about the same damage. But, the paladin? They are getting hit 95% of the time. They will never not be getting hit. And while they reduce the damage by 8, the Behir is dealing 22 and 17/17 damage per turn. That means that you will basically always be taking 14 and 26 or 40 points of damage. That doesn't feel like a tank to me. That feels like a dead character. Even if we cast shield of Faith that only brings it to 36 points of damage.

But it gets worse.

There are two other rules he mentioned, and they are devasting for this paladin. The first is that if an attack has advantage, say from being restrained because you where constricted by a Behir, then your DR is halved. The second is that if the attack rolls 10 pts higher than your AC, then your DR is halved. That means the Behir needs to only roll a 12 or higher, to get a total of 22, and the paladin is only reducing 4 or 5 damage from that attack. Which means that they are taking between 48 and 46 damage every turn.


He's explained why he wanted a system like this, he's expressed a few frustrations. The limits on armor progression, caused by armor only having a single meaningful stat, the ability for even low to mid level characters to get ACs in the 20's which are nearly impossible for low CR creatures to hit. And worse if you have an AC stacking build like what a paladin or Artificer can do.

I like the idea of adding DR to special armors, giving more of a range of options where you can buy armor that is better than the standard, or with differing abilities so it isn't just purely "which gives best AC" but this method just seems to nerf strength based builds into the ground. Especially since he proposes to do the same for the monsters, so that Behir would be easy to hit, but have a DR of 4 I think, which of course a Barbarian could cleave through with advantage, but a fighter? A fighter is just dealing less damage and getting hit more.

Do people think I'm missing something here? I've seen a few places where this seems well-received, but it seems like it is just brutal to me.

Linking the video, if people want the source:

 

[Stoutstien]

As someone who came up with a similar system it does change the overall feel of how HP works. I personally still kept the general AC ranges of armor the same due to this.
Light armor ranges from 11-13+dex, medium armor ranges from 12-15+ dex(with caps) with DR ranging from 1-3, and heavy ranges from 14-18 with DR 2-5.

Shields are broken into 3 categories buckler (1AC), kite(2 AC),and full/tower (2AC-need 16 str to wield-adds 2 DR)

Where I addressed AC stacking is the back end. No Generic +X armor, shield spell adds DR not AC, generic infusions are also replaced with more flavorful options, and I introduce a logarithmic scale on any AC that goes over 25.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

@Chaosmancer, I have not double checked your math, but it seems legit. I own feeling is that armour as DR would be more realistic but need a compete reworking of the hit points and damage system and probably also the whole attack/defence mechanics also.

I would not simply drop such a system into the game without reworking all the maths of the game. It also changes the tone of the game fairly radically.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

This is exactly how Fantasy Age from Green Ronin works, but you have to be careful with damage reduction in D&D. In FAGE, the damage die are higher, so there's always a chance to deal some damage on a hit.

In D&D you quickly fall into the weird in-between where some enemies cant damage some characters at low level or damage reduction is barely useful at higher level.

There's also the problem that now every class will need to pump Dex to have somewhat of a chance to dodge an attack, no avoiding it by dumping it and wearing heavier armor.

Imagine some poor MAD class having yet another ability to augment, having to choose between their spell DC, their to-hit or not being squashed.

@UngainlyTitan as the right of it: it can work quite well, but it requires a reworking of damage and hp and ability score generation.

 

[Stoutstien]

This is exactly how Fantasy Age from Green Ronin works, but you have to be careful with damage reduction in D&D. In FAGE, the damage die are higher, so there's always a chance to deal some damage on a hit.

In D&D you quickly fall into the weird in-between where some enemies cant damage some characters at low level or damage reduction is barely useful at higher level.

There's also the problem that now every class will need to pump Dex to have somewhat of a chance to dodge an attack, no avoiding it by dumping it and wearing heavier armor.

Imagine some poor MAD class having yet another ability to augment, having to choose between their spell DC, their to-hit or not being squashed.

@UngainlyTitan as the right of it: it can work quite well, but it requires a reworking of damage and hp and ability score generation.

You just need a soft cap on reduction. So even if your DR could reduce it to 0 it deals X damage.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

You just need a soft cap on reduction. So even if your DR could reduce it to 0 it deals X damage.

But it does create a problem where reduction is barely worth it:

• it cant be too high to avoid being immune to low level attacks
• if a roll is 10+ over your AC, the DR is halved. But, if you dumped Dex and wanted to go for higher DR, your AC will be low, so qui easy to beat by 10+.
• if you are flanked, the DR is halved. Flanking is pretty basic since you dont provoke AoO while moving around a target.

Meaning, at higher level, not having pumped Dex will be hugely detrimental, because DR will barely do anything most of the time. Imagine a dragon claw attack: who cares if you have a DR of 7-10, if your AC is 12 because as a Paladin you already have to pump Str, Con, Cha (not mentioning Wis to avoid nasty saves), the adult white dragon you are facing will halve your meager DR 50% of the time. Anyway, with 2d10+6+1d8 3 times in a round, a DR of 10 is still pretty minimal.

In such a system, I can see Rogues (single stat Dex +Evasion + Uncanny Dodge) + Medium Armor feat (Shield + Medium armor for medium DR) being the best tanks.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think you have the right of it.

Damage in D&D has too wide a range for something like this to work well. Against high level monsters with one or two attacks even 8 points of DR is practically meaningless. While against something like a Marilith, with a huge number of small damage attacks, it's a little too good.

Moreover, such a house rule ignores the important role that (RAW) armor plays in mitigating secondary effects from a hit. A creature that automatically grapples on a hit is going to have a much easier time doing so against AC~10 than AC 20, meaning that those kinds of effects are far more powerful under such a change.

 

[Mecheon]

I think the worst thing about this is the absolute benefits it gives to Dex, the one stat that absolutely does not need more buffs in 5E

 

[Ancalagon]

Another factor to remember is that this slows the game down.

Before: the average attack:
1: roll to hit
2: If hit, roll for damage
3: Apply damage to HP

Now we have:
1: roll to hit
2: If hit, roll for damage
3: reduce damage
4: apply damage to HP.

Sure, just one extra step... that is going to occur very frequently.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I have thought of another problem. In 5e low level monsters can act as minions at higher level encounters due to bounded accuracy. If you introduce DR and DR scales, which it would have to, or else you have to drastically flatten the power curve, then that use of low levels as minions becomes void.