D&D 5E Discussing Mr Rhexx Homebrew Armor

[Ancalagon]

armor as DR definitely can be done - warhammer frpg 2nd ed for example does it quite well. BUT

1: It does slow down the game
2: It requires the game balance to be built around it.

I think it would require a "convertor" that would convert both damage and monster/PC hitpoints to new values. It's quite the undertaking...

also

3: what to do about barbarians?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I have thought of another problem. In 5e low level monsters can act as minions at higher level encounters due to bounded accuracy. If you introduce DR and DR scales, which it would have to, or else you have to drastically flatten the power curve, then that use of low levels as minions becomes void.

You could mitigate this issue somewhat by changing the DR to a range. For example, instead of a flat 8 DR, it could be 2d6+1. This would keep minions viable longer by giving them at least a chance to harm heavily armored targets.

That said, such a change would obviously slow down combat significantly more than even flat DR would.

 

[Stoutstien]

DR does slow down combat a tad but I haven't seen a big issue with it yet. It's faster than doing the math for resistance by a long shot.

A variant I've been playing with bit haven't paned into anything solid is DR reduces the static damage added to damage so they keep the random variable of dice but also give h armor the feel of DR. So a skeleton would attack the PC and thanks to heavy armor of DR up to 4 they only take 1d6 rather than 1d6+2.

the goal is a fast way to add in DR while also make sure low CR does and critical hits feel right.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

You could mitigate this issue somewhat by changing the DR to a range. For example, instead of a flat 8 DR, it could be 2d6+1. This would keep minions viable longer by giving them at least a chance to harm heavily armored targets.

That said, such a change would obviously slow down combat significantly more than even flat DR would.

Maybe but you are adding fixes to other fixes and I think that rebuilding the game with DR at the center of armour as a concept would be better but would it still be D&D

armor as DR definitely can be done - warhammer frpg 2nd ed for example does it quite well. BUT

1: It does slow down the game
2: It requires the game balance to be built around it.

I think it would require a "convertor" that would convert both damage and monster/PC hitpoints to new values. It's quite the undertaking...

also

3: what to do about barbarians?

I dunno about WHFRPG 2 but I played and ran version 1 for years and it also was DR system in effect. It worked well but the power curve in WHFRPG was very shallow compared to D&D.

I think to really make DR work in D&D you finish up with something that is not D&D.

I think that AC, HP and escalating HP per level are part of the core identity of D&D, among other things. This pretty quirky mess is out of the mind of Gygax and you mess with it at your peril.

I am not saying that cannot have a good game build around DR or that MrRhexx's system is enjoyable for some but to do it properly is it still D&D?

 

[Art Waring]

In D&D you quickly fall into the weird in-between where some enemies cant damage some characters at low level or damage reduction is barely useful at higher level.

This.

Armor as DR was a variant rule for 3e for a long time, I am not sure how their system is different than the original in 3e, but the concept has been around for quite a while. We tried it, I noticed that the players often barely noticed minor DR (1-2), but naything higher and lesser minions and monsters start to drop off in effectiveness pretty quickly.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think if such a system would be implemented, the best way to do it would be to:
1) Have higher armors still add some defense, (+2 Medium, +3 for heavier) in addition to their reduction so that non-dex build arent auto-hit.
2) Have various shield give more defense against ranged attacks.
3) Instead of a flat reduction, reduce the damage die size instead by varying increments. So a hit will always do at least some damage (minimum 1+static mod).
4) Critical hit damage dice are never reduced in size.
5) Variant: have different DR against different damage type. (Chainmail: DR 3 vs Slashing, DR 1 vs Piercing, 0 DR vs Bludgeoning)

So a goblin with its 1d6+2 short bow, on hit against a DR 1 armor (say a leather armor), would only be 1d4+2. But against a DR 2 or 3, it would be reduced to 1 (minimum die reduction) +2.

 

[Cruentus]

I don't think it works particularly well with how DnD handles weapons and monster attacks. They'll "balance" monster attacks by giving more lower damage attacks, or less higher damage attacks, etc., which doesn't work well with a DR system.

I tried several different iterations of DR, and while they looked like they might work on paper, you'd have to re-do monster attacks to more closely mimic character attacks (and damage). Likely adjusting them all so that they do some damage on good rolls, but not too much on higher.

Its also difficult in DnD due to all the riders/extra damage that gets piled onto attacks (primarily from PC's, but some monsters) - smite, sneak attack, elemental damage add ons, etc. Monsters tend not to have those, but also tend to have damage all over the map.

The closest I've seen to a system that "feels" more "realistic" is in Wolves of God, an RPG in Britain after the fall of Rome. Shields provide +5 AC (so AC15 for all), I don't think Dex does anything, and armors can bump up this number to around 18 or so (heavy armors). And each time you miss an attack, you still do "shock" damage for the blow, amount varies by weapon, usually 1 or 2 points + str bonus. So a fight, even if you miss every round, still will end over several rounds as the shock damage wears down combatants. The other thing is has is the balance factor of it being mostly humans against humans. So all the values end up the same.

As for DR in 5e, as mentioned, it'd take a huge overhaul of how the system works to implement it, or at least re-working how Damage is done across the board.

 

[Stoutstien]

We do have a little bit of a baseline with the H armor master feat. I don't believe anyone has claimed it broke the system so DR can work within a certain tolerance.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

We do have a little bit of a baseline with the H armor master feat. I don't believe anyone has claimed it broke the system so DR can work within a certain tolerance.

Maybe but it has the failing other have already pointed out. It is over effective a low levels and useless at high levels.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There are a lot of good responses here, and a lot of things worth considering.

I do think "armor as DR" can work as a system, when that system is built for it from the ground up. DnD wasn't built for it, and I feel that leads to some bizarre things. Sure, DR helps you reduce low-damage attacks, but even by level 5 you have enemies like Hill Giants that hit HARD, but have slightly less accurate attacks. A fighter now would just get smashed by anything like that, because they cannot dodge and the DR isn't as effective against the high average damage.

I also agree that making Dex even more important for all builds is... rough.

Like the idea of, if you implement this, increasing the bonus from shields.

You just need a soft cap on reduction. So even if your DR could reduce it to 0 it deals X damage.

Pulling this out, I actually find this kind of a problem, and he did suggest a soft cap of 1. And maybe this gets to the different philosophies between me and the designer.

Previously, if a level 2 Paladin had chain, a shield, defensive style, and Shield of Faith, they could get an AC of 21. If they were then facing a squad of goblin archers, let's say four of them, then even if the goblins are hiding and firing from cover, they are very unlikely to hurt the paladin. They may get a lucky shot, but most of these blows just bounce off.

Now, this can be frustrating. As the DM, I hate missing and feeling like my monsters are powerless as much as I dislike it as a player. It is human nature, but the moment is awesome for the party.

Under this new system, the Paladin may only have an AC of 12, with a DR of 9. Now, especially with advantage, the Paladin is in deep trouble. Those goblins aren't going to miss, they are going to consistently hit that 12. If they have advantage, that reduces his DR to 4. So, he's taking 1 or 2 damage from every single shot.

Where before, the goblins were fleeing, because they could not hurt this terrible juggernaut, now the paladin will be forced to flee because they can't survive this onslaught for long.

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I do like the idea of including DR into armor. Heavy Armor Master is a fun feat and I like the idea of expanding on it, maybe making it a function of special armors, but I think adding DR without lowering AC is pure buffing to some strong classes, while lowering AC feels bad to me.