Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

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There are other ways to live, just as valid as what you consider to be the right way. As an Australian, I agree with the principle of what you're saying, but I disagree with the hard line you seem to be taking on it, as if there are no other options, or nothing likely to be as valid. I can also see a touch of arrogance in your words, as if the rest of the world needs to be schooled into the One Right Way. I think softening your position a bit, and being less judgemental of other cultures would go a long way towards becoming more agreeable with non-American mindsets...the irony being that by making this post, I've become judgemental of an American mindset...no matter, never claimed not to be a hypocrite. :)
 
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Excuse me, I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but could someone explain me how did this go from the usual Harn vs. d20 to communism vs. capitalism? Also, is Harn communist and d20 capitalist or the other way around? Thanks.
 

Mobius said:
LOL. I think that you need to lose a bit of that defensiveness. *I* do not think that the masses are morons, but I assure you that most corporations make that assumption when they make their products, which was my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer on that.

Wow Mobius you sound much more reasonable this time round. Bit of a disappointment I was looking forward to a good arguement. *grin*

I did however find your final words a bit odd.

Mobius said:
WotC didn't even remotely sink to this level when they made 3e, a fact that most of you have noticed because it was such an improvement over 2e. Nonetheless, it marked the first time that WotC actually catered to the mass market when designing the product, and it shows (at least to me). Note that by mass market, I mean of the population at large and not 'most of the gamers'.

So what is the problem with 3e being aimed at a mass market? Why does something that caters towards a mass market, suddenly lose value? Something can be both good and cater to a mass market.

Also could you point out where it shows that 3rd Edition has been aimed at the population at large and not just gamers? Which bits in particular?

On a side point I wouldn't say 3rd Edition is the first time Wizards have catered to a mass market, Pokemon came before 3E remember.
 

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Doc Klueless, you are quoting me out of context with "based on the initial lame-o responses from ENWorlders". That post referred to the first two posts by Mark and ByronD which derided Harn and/or myself in a joking manner without adding anything of import to the thread.
KK, you lump all ENWorlders together with that statement. Nowhere in that post does it indicate otherwise unless I pop over to ENWorld from the HarnForum. In fact, your complete post is:

"Actually, based on the initial lame-o responses from ENWorlders, I am beginning to think converting them over in any great numbers is impossible, as they prefer to dwell in darkness, rather than the burning light of truth that is Harn!

Then again, I was one of them a few months ago, LOL. Go figure. "

Taken in context, it's even more insulting: "prefer to dwell in darkness?" Joking tone: maybe. Insulting and condescending towards ENWorlders: Definitely.

This is, as I mentioned earlier, a piss-poor job "converting the masses," which I'd very much like to see as I enjoy Harn quite a bit myself.

Patrick-S&S: Sorry if I misspoke. I wasn't trying to lump all Harniacs together. Just those I saw who were insulting to d20 people in threads supposedly about converting d20 people to Harn and/or HarnMaster. It seemed very counterproductive. I myself own most of the Harn materials (Actually, statements during one of my few games with MaxKaladin are what got me interested. He was neither insulting nor did he look down his nose at my style of play.)
 




Re: Re: Ok. Now this will probably get me in trouble, but...

Patrick-S&S said:

I would urge you to reconsider. The Hârn Forum is usually an extremely polite forum normally and I have yet to find a forum with so much meaty content. True you have a bitch section (named Pamesani Arena) where you can bitch about all things you do not like, and believe me some of the posts there are from Hârnfans who are bitching about the HârnMaster system (they use some other system when gaming Hârn). As you should be aware by now the setting and the system are not the same.

I am quite concerned that so many think the Hârn people are all a bunch of snobs looking down on the rest of the gaming world. True many are extremely dedicated but only a few vocal ones are dissing the rest of the community. RPGs are all about having fun. I have seen hostility on these boards against other games besides d20 so the anti-d20 posts on the Hârn Forum does not stretch too far from the tone on these boards. And I have seen some pretty heavy flaming here that would never appear on the Hârn Forum. Good thing the moderators here are doing a great job.

I think it all have to do with the fact that we defend what we like. :)



The difference is, just by virtue of the huge number of people on this forum, there will not only be detractors of other games, but probably just as many, if not more, defenders of that game. On forums for other games, mentioning one likes d20 or asking a d20 related question does little more than invite a flurry of posts that say, in essence: "d20 sux. Our game rox. You need to play our game and not d20." And the discussion grinds to a halt. There are almost never defenders of d20 on such boards, so it ends up being extremely one-sided. Now, you can ask "why bring up d20 then?" Sometimes it makes sense in the context of the discussion, sometimes one wants to get some feedback or advice in a new forum. However, devotees of other games will get much more constructive feedback here than d20 fans will get on forums for other games, even taking the flames into account.
 

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Originally posted by Kaptain_Kantrip
Doc Klueless, you are quoting me out of context with "based on the initial lame-o responses from ENWorlders". That post referred to the first two posts by Mark and ByronD which derided Harn and/or myself in a joking manner without adding anything of import to the thread.
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KK, you lump all ENWorlders together with that statement. Nowhere in that post does it indicate otherwise unless I pop over to ENWorld from the HarnForum. In fact, your complete post is:

"Actually, based on the initial lame-o responses from ENWorlders, I am beginning to think converting them over in any great numbers is impossible, as they prefer to dwell in darkness, rather than the burning light of truth that is Harn!

Then again, I was one of them a few months ago, LOL. Go figure. "

Honestly, I will stand by my comment as an accurate analogy.

I can’t help it if the subtlety went over KK’s head.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok. Now this will probably get me in trouble, but...

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
The pre-game is an *optional* tool for a GM and player to get together and work up a viable background for a character. People in realistic societies are restricted in their choices by family, law, societal approval, friends, education, social status, etc.

If you are referring to the pyrokinetic serf girl in one of the pregame examples I've seen online, those are all realistic choices the player was presented with. How many choices did you have at 14? 15? 16? 17? 18? You would have even less if you were a female serf living in poverty with little to no education and bound to the land with no hope of ever (legally) leaving. Your default options are to get married young, pop out some babies and live the rest of your life working the land with your family, never seeing much past the area you were born in. Now, if you want to change that destiny, a whole bunch of problems present themselves rather quickly. You can probably never earn enough money to buy your freedom. Your family and friends will call you crazy and tell you to settle down and be realistic about your options. The lord will caution you against running away or will send armed men after you to drag you back and be whipped and humiliated in front of everyone you know, plus your family will be fined 100 pence, which is a fortune for a serf, like most of their yearly income, so you must think of the hardship your actions will have on your family (who will be fined whether you are caught or not). Your best chances are to run away, or petition to join a nunnery (which the lord may approve to garner good will with the church). Harn's default setting is sexist, as historical earth was at the time, but of course that is easily changed if you wish it. Anyway, I'm trying to point out that the pregame scenario was realistic. A character of a higher social class (not a slave or serf) would have many more options available.

Keep in mind the pregame starts out around 14 and stops when you get to 18 or finish your training in your occupation. It generates friends, family and geographical data for a character so they have a real feeling for where they come from and who they are, and why they are the way they are. I think it is a valuable tool.

Characters--and this is a major problem I have with D&D--do not spring forth from whole cloth as born adventurers, yet the D&D rules basically assume this to be the case and offer little background aid. Harn generates everything for you by choice or random die rolls as your GM prefers, in or out of a pregame; in fact, generating a character's background and family are all required and done before anything else, they are deemed so important.

The pregame is not even in the HarnMaster rules except as a brief blurb in HM 1e. I don't think it appears at all in HM Core (2e). Every pregame is therefore different, as each GM will gave a different way of doing it. And again, it is merely an optional tool to help players fit into the game world in a realistic manner. This can be done without a pregame, of course, and will work fine that way as well, so long as the GM (and possibly player) are willing to do the work ahead of time to flesh out the PC's past history.

HarnMaster is about individuals, not cookie cutter archetypes, though you can play them if you wish... why you would want to (and this conformity is stressed in every edition of D&D, though much less so in 3e) is beyond me, but to each their own. HarnMaster has no classes, no levels and if you want to do something, you tell the GM, he thinks about it, consults the rules for advice perhaps, and then makes a ruling on the fly as to whether it is possible or not. Things are much less set in stone in HM, giving the GM complete creative control without being castrated by rules lawyers, munchkins and power gamers questioning his every move. So players and GMs are both free to try new and unexpected ways to do things.

Imagine a player saying, I want my PC to use this psionic power against this target. And the GM asks, "What effect are you trying to achieve?" The player suddenly realizes he has more than one option (even options not covered in the rules) and maybe should think up something new and creative rather than use what he thought was the only way he could do something. The Charm psionic talent in the rules allows you to overload a target's senses, "freezing" them in place, but I've houseruled that it can be used to subtly influence the target to regard you more favorably instead (by providing a bonus to Communication skills against that target). If a player had another idea that sounded reasonable, I'd be happy to come up with a ruling on the spot, favoring fun more than anything. The HM rules enccourage this and provide extra options and advice in sidebars to assist with expanding the game in any direction you choose.

Sorry. Like your posts, the pre-game is a lengthy way to accomplish very little. In a realistic world, the one in which we live, people have precious little time to devote to their hobby. As such, I prefer to get those characters generated and move on to the meat of the game where players stand to make a difference and have real choices. That pre-game document is an exersise in leading a player around by the nose until they give the responses that are otherwise inevitable. Your example of psionics is yet another mark of the failing of the system, bogging the game and players down in negotiations with the game master because of ill-defined mechanics. Get on with the game, I say!

Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Doc Klueless, you are quoting me out of context with "based on the initial lame-o responses from ENWorlders". That post referred to the first two posts by Mark and ByronD which derided Harn and/or myself in a joking manner without adding anything of import to the thread. I considered them lame-o responses and stand by my remark. The other comments I will explain here:

I do feel that D&D does not treat its adult players with respect by providing enough mature content (must not aliennate the kiddies and/or their parents, heavens no!), and that many (certainly not all) D&D players and writers are preoccupied with IMO "childish things" like battling hordes of red dragons (D&D movie, anyone?), levitating war ships or killer flumphs (well, you get the idea) in order to save the world every week.

Due to what I perceive as its preoccupation with childish "video game" concepts, D&D cares little for character development and everything about character power-ramping. The entire system breaks down around level 10-15 as characters become uber-powerful would-be gods that are all but unstoppable unless challenged by dozens of mind-flayers and hezrou demons in a room they can't escape from by teleporting out... The game simply falls apart under the weight of its own ludicrousness and becomes a self-parody at high levels. Players are often more obsessed with XP, HP, Multi-Classing, Prestige Classing, etc., than their character's personal and emotional development.

It becomes like, "If I could just get enough XP to go up a level my guy would be so tyte!" or "If I can just get feat X, Y, and Z, I can morph into the Super-Mega-Axe-Chopper Doomguard PrC!" instead of a Harn player's "Aha! If I can just get to the next town and visit my old chum, Squire Baenlyn, he can help me decipher this damned map and then I can finally organize my expedition to the lost temple of the forbidden one---where I hope to discover the secret resting place of the Staff of Fanon---if that blasted Lord Maldan doesn't get there first!"

Players in my Harn game talk about their PC's personal goals that they are trying to achieve, not how much treasure they've won or how many monsters they've fought... in fact, the one monster they met was so horrifying, they rarely if ever mention it and shudder when they do. They never want to meet another monster of any type!

I have never liked dragons, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings or other high fantasy elements in my D&D game and quite frankly, resented their "obligatory" inclusion in every damn product that seems to be put out, third party or not. That's what I like about Harn, which presents its demihumans, dragons and monsters in an intelligent, believable and most importantly, optional way. Don't like 'em? They don't exist, or did once but are all dead or gone now and just fairy tales. Or they were never really there to begin with, because they were just something else (like a bunch of dirty midgets in a cave). The few such races or critters that are there are out of the way and not part of the everyday experience of Harnians, so much so that the average person does not believe in elves, dwarves or orcs (gargun). They are stuffed out of the way so that everything is humanocentric and these things can be ignored or removed with little to no consequence. Or, if you want, you can expand upon them, but it's a choice. You don't start out with them forced upon you.

D&D rams the things I don't like down my throat---sure I can remove 'em, but it is a lot of work and a pain in the butt. I want to scream every time I open up a book and see that this or that NPC is a @#$% tinker gnome, 1/2 medusa or polymorphed dragon. It insults my intelligence. Things like that should be placed by the DM not by someone else who doesn't understand the DM's campaign. Better IMO to give a more realistic picture (like humans only) and then provide options for bringing in other races, monsters, powerful magics, etc., so the DM can judge for himself what's right without having to tear a setting or module apart. The problem with D&D, IMO, is that it enforces the high fantasy, illogical stereotype and imprints this on generations of gamers who then don't even consider that fantasy could be done a different way.

You should clarify that my previous statements were not about Harn but rather your style of evangelism, as compared to your former style of spouting off regarding products you had never actually read. Nonetheless, there is much that could be said about Harn but I am not willing to devote as much time to it as others have in this thread. People will have to take a look at it, discover on their own that it is unwieldy, and cast it aside as they would yet another lengthy post that boils down to nothing of consequence.
 
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