Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

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Capitalism does this better than either of the other two.

Does it now?! I think that there are a whole host of homeless or working poor here in the US and Canada that would decidely disagree. The gap between rich and poor is widening in nearly every country, but it is widening more quickly in the ultra-capitalist ones like the States, so perhaps a case could be made that Socialism is slowing the effect of rampant greed.

My friends in Germany laugh because our notion of success means 'more money' instead of the 6 weeks of paid holidays they get when they start a job. I have to work ten years at my current job to get that amount of time off. Who is the success and who is the corporate slave?

Take away money and you get socialism. Karl Marx was an inteliget guy, but humans corrupt systems, and socialism on a large scale has never proven feasible.

I know that this isn't you, Celtavian, but I thought it bore a response. Every socialist country I have visited has used money, so I don't know what the heck you are talking about here. Socialism, btw, has and is working on a large scale all over the rest of the world. With the exception of the US and the petty dictatorships, most modern countries organize their finances around a more or less socialist model. Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Britain and South America all do. Remember that being socialist means the government owns 'some' aspects of the economy while some are owned by individuals. That 'some' can be a large amount or a small amount, so socialism varies widely in practice.

and that brings us back to clueless, er Bagpuss ;)

So what is the problem with 3e being aimed at a mass market? Why does something that caters towards a mass market, suddenly lose value? Something can be both good and cater to a mass market.

To make it appeal to a mass audience, a product is changed in some fashion. I think that you and I can agree on that. The minute a product is changed, people will make up their minds on whether the change is good or bad. This is an opinion, essentially, and my posts express mine. I don't personally like when companies cater to the average because soon enough there ceases to be products to suit anyone *but* the average.

As for the specific aspects of 3e I don't like: feats, xp, prestige classes, hp, leveling every two sessions on average when using the suggested amount of experience...

When working backwards from the 'features' to the everyman that the features were meant to appeal to, it becomes apparent that I was, as the customer, expected to have a short attention span (otherwise why level so often), to love power-ups (feats) over psychological character development, and to love the title/abilities (prestige classes - what a name!) of my character's occupation more than my character itself. With hp, I am assured that my character is either fully functional ... or dead - and even death isn't too far to come back from. Who is this everyman? To me, it seems like this system was tailored for the munchkins of the world. Of course, non-munchkins can make use of it (you all do), but it leans most definitely in their direction:

They have a system to measure their march through the dungeon (xp and levels) so that they can compare with their friends, kewl titles to toss around for some 'prestige' in their gaming group, and a bunch of power-ups so they can turn their dwarven fighter into a ninja with an axe. They have a damage system that ensures that they don't have to put up with annoying real-life traits like nagging injuries or slowing down when your leg gets chopped off. Top this off with a rapid system of progression and you keep the munchkin tied to D&D on paper instead of Final Fantasy on the PS2 - not an unadmirable goal in and of itself, but certainly not a game designed for a 33 year old divorcee that reads Medieval History in his spare time for fun and who prefers low fantasy (George R. Martin), realistic characters and believeable cultures.

And yet, up until I read the quote of Ryan Dancey's earlier in the thread, I was still OK with all of this. I was going to take what I could from it and leave the rest - what I do with all my gaming stuff. Once that quote hit the thread, though, it became clear that the percentage of useable material in WotC offerings was going to decline rather than increase, because this new direction was a carefully chosen design decision and not just happenstance. Why should I stick around when WotC is clearly courting a different customer than me?

Which is why I am kicking myself for buying into 3e instead of sticking with the Harn I have used for most of my life. I must have had a bunch of nostalgic rocks in my head that day for the good old days with the Basic set and Keep on the Borderlands. Note to self: Chevy people do *not* buy Fords.

Mobius, I'm sure you could be called a lot of less civilized names like "liberal", "left wing" and even "hippy". I don't think these names apply to you. I think you are a Utopian.

LOL, I am not a utopian, though I am often labeled as one because people confuse 'preference' with 'blind adherence'. To me, it is enough that quality at least get a nod somewhere in the equation. My complaint is not that mass-marketed products exist, because they have existed in one form or another since the dawn of the first commercial enterprise. It is that in our current day and age, they exist literally everywhere you look because our culture valorizes low cost instead of high quality.

The world's products seem to be polarizing into mass-market on one end and ultra-elitist on the other, and I am bemoaning the lack of decent quality products somewhere in the middle. If all the products are marketed to the masses or the millionaires - both of whom don't really exist except to demographers - where does that leave lil 'ol me? Out in the cold, I guess. I can't afford the elitist stuff and I generally don't want to buy the mass market stuff because it doesn't appeal to me.
 
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Kaptain_Kantrip said:
It becomes like, "If I could just get enough XP to go up a level my guy would be so tyte!" or "If I can just get feat X, Y, and Z, I can morph into the Super-Mega-Axe-Chopper Doomguard PrC!" instead of a Harn player's "Aha! If I can just get to the next town and visit my old chum, Squire Baenlyn, he can help me decipher this damned map and then I can finally organize my expedition to the lost temple of the forbidden one---where I hope to discover the secret resting place of the Staff of Fanon---if that blasted Lord Maldan doesn't get there first!"

You know, I kind of resent this.

That supposed "Harn" quote could have come out of a D&D game just as easily. If you don't believe that, you haven't been playing D&D with the right people.

There are plenty of D&D players who care more about their characters than the stats. My players are struggling with the fact that they've been put on opposite sides of the law due to family loyalties. My PC Kraydn was defined more by his relationships with other people - like his brother and his wife - than he ever was by his character sheet.

All you need to do is look at the Story Hours Forum to see scores of examples of campaigns where the characters and their plans are more important than the stats.

Yeah, there are some D&D players who play like it's a giant game of Diablo. Guess what? The only reason they aren't Harn players is because D&D has the exposure. If Harn had been the first and the biggest, you'd be complaining about the Harn players that only care about their PC's stats.

Harn doesn't have some kind of mystical monopoly on good roleplaying. Using Harn will not magically transform anybody into a good roleplayer, and using D&D will not magically transform anybody into a rules lawyering powergeek. The system doesn't have a damn thing to do with that - it's all in the players, and I think it's pretty arrogant to suggest that the supporters of one system and/or world are somehow "better" than those of us who enjoy using something else.

Go enjoy Harn and Harnmaster. But don't come around here claiming you're "better" because of it - and if you do, don't be surprised if people don't really care for your attitude.

I certainly don't.

J
 

Or if people begin to be really annoyed...

If d20 and D&D are so bad, Kap, please, leave ENWorld and remain in Hârnforums, O.K.?
 
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BTW, instead of trying to convert d20ers to Harners or viceversa, I'd suggest everyone involved to convert non-gamers to gamers, which is more useful and probably easier.
 

You know, I think other people may also echo what I'm going to say--

Kaptain Kantrip, you have put me off wanting anything to do with Harn. Here's why:

Great. Harn's a realistic system that encourages roleplaying. I'd heard of it before in those terms, and until I started reading your posts, I might have checked it out if I ran across it in a game store. I'm into story-based and character-based gaming (and I get story- and character-based games playing with the d20 system). One of the reasons I've been a little skeptical about Harn (besides some of the flaky ideas the setting appears to contain) is because of the apparent lack of rules transparancy with the Harnmaster rules. The d20 rules are simple and consistent enough to be transparent, which means they don't get in the way of telling an actual story. Other rules sets I've used don't have this transparancy.

But that's beside the point. I would've checked out Harn, if I ran across it, until I started reading your posts. Now that I know what sorts of players play Harn, I have less than no interest in playing. Getting into a rules set puts you into a slightly different community, with a slightly different culture. D20 puts you into the most diverse community. Storyteller puts you into a niche. GURPS puts you into a niche. Etc. (Yes, I'm aware that there are people who play a lot of different rules sets, and I don't think this fact conflicts with my comment about "community.") I don't want to be part of the Harn community. And you are the reason.

So thanks for steering me away from Harn.
 

wow, how interesting

hmm, well this is the wierdest post i have ever seen, how does one go from polite opinion about a game vs one game to world economics and bitter words for a game or two? very interesting.

my two cents... first the six weeks of holiday vs having more money... hmm, let me see, pay my bills or go chill in a cabin somewhere poor? I think i will pay my bills. Second, it always seems that everyone else thinks that america sucks and that europe is the best. well we all have our problems, neither side is the best, it just happens that america at this moment is making more money than europe. great, does that mean we are better? no, does it mean our system of doing things is better? no, but neither is the system in europe. They have poor people too, they fall on hard times too, there are slums, there are sick people, there is crime, there is death. Its the same all over the world, i dont think a countries political system can really change the fundamental basis for human society. Socialism is great, it works, cool. does it make money? who knows, probably not as much as captialism, is money important? yes, do u like the computer u are typing on? do you like ur shirt? do you like to live in a house ? hey guess what, i bet capitalism had something to do with that. AS for badstuff, it isnt the fault of the people who make this bad stuff, really the blame goes on the consumer. AS long as there is a person to buy the detritus of the world, the world will keep producing it. Dont blame the producer, they are just try ing to meet demand. but that also is wrong. what is right? nothing, we are all completely screwed and no system no matter how glorious is going to change that. Deniability is how humanity at large gets through its day.
 


You know, I'd rather see the thread shut down for the badmouthing of other systems (and the players of those systems) and the elitism, than for the political discussion.

Note that in the post above, I said that KK has provided me with evidence that Harn players tend to be people I'd prefer not to play with. IMO, that does not constitude badmouthing. I'm talking about the maturity comments, etc.
 

derverdammte said:
You know, I'd rather see the thread shut down for the badmouthing of other systems (and the players of those systems) and the elitism, than for the political discussion.

Note that in the post above, I said that KK has provided me with evidence that Harn players tend to be people I'd prefer not to play with. IMO, that does not constitude badmouthing. I'm talking about the maturity comments, etc.

I hate political discussion, and I don't like seeing it in the thread.
 

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