Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Eosin the Red]

Patrick - I know you went bye bye, I just wanted to clarify a poorly worded comment on my part.

I think Aurans production values could have really helped Harn. I bought Elavil(?) but after spilling the contents ten times I just put the thing away. Some of the art was a vast improvement over some of the previous stuff but the maps were still sub-par. I would prefer some of the CC fan stuff to some of the B&W (not the main map) maps. WotC bashers would freek at the cost of a Harn supplement! If they incresed sale the costs would go down.

That is what I meant when I said "Harn missed the boat". It could have had a kick in the sales chonies - as two seperate companies? I am sure Harn will continue to plod along but for whatever reason (good or bad) they missed an opprotunity.

That aint a knock - Hell, I have missed hundereds of them.

 

[derverdammte]

I hate political discussion, and I don't like seeing it in the thread.

Oh, I agree with you. But I think the elitism and gamer-bashing is even worse.

 

[Horacio]

Oh, I agree with you. But I think the elitism and gamer-bashing is even worse.

Yes, but politics are forbidden in the boards and elitism, sadly, isn't...

 

[Mobius]

Harn doesn't have some kind of mystical monopoly on good roleplaying. Using Harn will not magically transform anybody into a good roleplayer, and using D&D will not magically transform anybody into a rules lawyering powergeek.

You are entirely correct. I currently play Harn with a couple of rules lawyers and find it every bit as frustrating as someone does when they play d20 with rules lawyers.

The system doesn't have a damn thing to do with that - it's all in the players ...<snip>

I don't know if I agree completely. Products are designed for specific people and if the marketing is done well, those types of folks make up a greater percentage of the buyers. It is not a hard and fast science, of course, but the trends are measureable.

Can certain people transcend any game system to make of it what they will? Sure they can, and those types of folks are on one end of the continuum. The other end of the continuum are the folks who refuse to deviate from the rules they have in front of their face; when they change systems, they change their style of play. To these folks, choosing the right system is very, very important. Most of us, of course, sit somewhere in the middle.

The reason I think HarnMaster is relatively popular with the users of Harn, the setting, is that the goal for any true role-player is the system that lets the setting shine through. Good role-players could use literally any system to achieve nirvana with their game world, but when the system is tailored to the setting, reaching that synergy is perhaps a little easier for us merely mortal role-players.

I'll give you as an example one of my friends who is a rules lawyer. My campaign is set on Harn and uses HarnMaster, a system that this rules lawyer detests because it actually helps curb his lawyering mentality. I can't count how many times he has gotten angry because healing isn't instantaneous, weapons and armour bring attention from the authorities during peace-time, even the lowly dagger can kill him, and peasants are a very real danger to even a skilled fighter. His style of play has literally been curbed by the rules as they sit. Of course, he still tries to work his nefarious 'evil' and he even has a copy of the rules to work his magic, so I instituted a few house rules that even futher curb his tendencies.

Of course, he hates that he can't manipulate the rules to his benefit, but I think that he honestly enjoys the campaign now that the ground rules have been set. If he didn't, he wouldn't keep coming.

 

[Corinth]

I wouldn't be so certain. Some people will take playing in a game that they hate over not gaming at all.

 

[tsadkiel]

the goal for any true role-player is the system that lets the setting shine through.

Oh, that's the goal of any true roleplayer! Silly me, I thought it had something to do with having a good time.

Guess I'm not a true roleplayer, then.

 

[Mobius]

Some of the art was a vast improvement over some of the previous stuff but the maps were still sub-par.

LOL. This just goes to show you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you read the back posts on the Harnforum you would see a very vociferous debate over the merits of the new art, with the cover of Evael being the center piece. There was a vocal group that liked the new 'elf on steroids from a comic book' style art, and a bunch that considered that style selling out to the high-fantasy crew.

If you look even further, you will see that there was a big debate on Auran, too. Auran's goal was to make the game world more palatable to the folks who currently play D&D and so they changed a bit here and there to ease the transition, so to speak. Most of the changes were pretty innocuous, like the art involved, but some changes were pretty significant, like adding a new god to the pantheon.

In other words, in order to get more sales, you have to make changes ... and once the changes are done, you aren't really sellling the same product anymore, are you? There is only so far down this road you can go before you are no longer selling Harnworld and, instead, you start selling The Forgotten Realms: Harn, if you get my drift.

There were more than a few people relieved when Auran gave up on that 'opportunity'. Sure, prices would have gone down, but the products would have changed, too, and change isn't always for the better.

 

[Mobius]

Oh, that's the goal of any true roleplayer! Silly me, I thought it had something to do with having a good time.

The assumption in my statement being that true role-players, ahem... like role-playing. The rules can get in the way of that sometimes.

Interesting moniker. I take it that you have read The Urth of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe?

 

[Mobius]

I wouldn't be so certain. Some people will take playing in a game that they hate over not gaming at all.

I'm not worried. Every single person in our friendship group games and nearly all of them are running a campaign in some system or the other, so if he really wanted to get out of my campaign, he certainly has other options. I have told him that if he is unhappy, he should simply not play, but he insists on showing up each time we meet. Until I hear otherwise, I will consider that tacit approval of my methods.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The assumption in my statement being that true role-players, ahem... like role-playing. The rules can get in the way of that sometimes.

I don't even understand what that means. Seriously. If someone wants to roleplay, they'll roleplay no matter what the system is. If what you're saying is that the rules of some games - like D&D - lets players decide their own destiny, and choose how they want to play, no matter how badly the DM wants force them to play his way, then yeah. I guess the rules would get in the way, then.

Or, if you mean that the D&D rules encourage powergaming - then that's a problem for your group, not the game. That is, if you want to label the method by which someone tries to have fun a "problem." If someone in your group tends to munchkin their PC when playing D&D, then maybe that's how they want to play. Forcing them to play a game that doesn't give those options to the player seems unfair and not very enjoyable, to me.

Game rules don't put limits on roleplaying. They do provide an excuse for someone to force others to play the way they want to play, by providing the "straw man" for their argument as to which game should be played in lieu of less "roleplay-conducive" games.