Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Celtavian]

Re

Mobius,

I just have one last thing to say. RPG games would not exist, nor the RPG market, were it not for the profit motive. None of the RPG makers are doing it just for fun. They may not all be greedy money grubbers, but they definitely want to make a living making RPG games. The fact that Capitalism encourages business creation made it so that RPG developers could create a viable business using whatever resources they could muster to bring RPG games to us gamers. Creation is the big advantage of Capitalism.

 

[Fenes 2]

I do feel that D&D does not treat its adult players with respect by providing enough mature content (must not aliennate the kiddies and/or their parents, heavens no!), and that many (certainly not all) D&D players and writers are preoccupied with IMO "childish things" like battling hordes of red dragons (D&D movie, anyone?), levitating war ships or killer flumphs (well, you get the idea) in order to save the world every week.

I have to admit that the "standard" D&D's PG-13 rating sometimes irks me, but since I rarely use bought adventures, and never without heavy customization, I am not really hampered in my gaming style by this. As others have told, it is a matter of the group, not exactly the rules and sourcebooks, unless your DM really only plays store-bought modules, and plays them word-for-word, page-by-page without the slightest customization.

If I can play a mature D&D game in the FR without battling hordes of dragons and carrying more magic per PC than the entire treasure horde of a Zulkir of Thay (less, even, at level 12 than a "standard" low-level NPC from the sourcebooks), then anyone can do it, imho.

No need to bash a rule system for the supposed fault of the players.

 

[Mobius]

Colonel Hardisson,

Please, please remove the 8' sized chip off your shoulder. Did you happen to miss when I stated that I have munchkins in my HarnMaster game, just like d20 GMs have munchkins in their games?

Munchkins transcend games, transcend styles and transcend genres. I was stating that HarnMaster just happens to be better than most at dealing with munchkinism because of its setup. Are there other systems out there that are just as good? I dare say they are, but you are so inanely defensive that you seem intent on putting words in my mouth.

There are probably a million d20 players in the world. I don't know them all, haven't met more than a 100 in my life and will likely never meet the rest. Do I think that d20 players are munchkins? Give me a, pardon the expression, goddamn break. Are you so intent on finding enemies that you start labeling everyone you see into your convenient dichotomy?

Now, I think everyone reading the thread knows you are implying that d20/D&D isn't for "true role-player"s

Jesus H. read my goddamn posts, you idiot. True role players can use any system, d20 included, and get a satisfactory result from a game world. Nowhere here do I make any generalizations about d20 players. I only say that HarnMaster, by being tied to Harn intimately, helps weaker role-players get the gist of the world. Not Earth. Not Talislanta, but Harn.

Again, this seems to be a strong implication being made.

About what, precisely. I am very interested to see what you think I said. What I honestly said is that rules - any rules - sometimes get in the way of role-playing. RoleMaster seems from my experience to be the worst. Nothing kills the mood like poring over a dozen charts to find the result of a simple swing. D20, to be honest, seems to be a heck of a lot better than most when it comes to this, so I don't know why you have your panties in such a knot.

So, I'll just ask - are D&D players, in your honest estimation, munchkins, and not "true role-player"s?

The D&D system (not the d20 system, which is very variable) seems built to attract munchkins, in my opinion. Does it actually do so? I don't have the foggiest idea. I only know that it didn't attract me. You may enjoy it thoroughly, and I am honestly glad that you do.

From what I find at this forum, there are quite a few people who take a system like D&D and make very good campaigns out of them. I have never disputed this at all, and I welcome the fact that people can take a seemingly very 'powergamer' friendly system and put it to good use.

Also, the point is, you make broad generalizations about those who play less roleplay-intensive games - and come on, we know you mean D&D; let's not bandy words - but then when I make similar generalizations about those who play more roleplay-intensive games, it becomes about specific groups and players.

This is me laughing in your face. You think you know what I mean, but you have no clue because your inherently defensive nature precludes rational thought. All my posts have been essentially about individual - me. When I say that I think that mass marketing weakens products, that is MY opinion. When I say that I think D&D 3e encourages munchkins, that is also MY opinion. When I say that MY campaign is designed to get rid of munchkins, that is also my choice. I like intensive role-playing, and so I choose games that fit my style.

If you don't agree, then calmly walk away to a game you happen to enjoy with people you happen to enjoy. I see no harm at all in you and I agreeing to disagree. If you wish to turn my personal opinions into broad-brush slams of entire groups of people I have never met, then you will meet my ridicule for being an knee-jerk reactionary.

I happen to enjoy people, including those 'dastardly evil' d20 people you think I love to hate. If you want an enemy, look at the Christian Right Wing that want to ban all RPG's because they encourage magic and Satan worship.

 

[Mobius]

They may not all be greedy money grubbers, but they definitely want to make a living making RPG games. The fact that Capitalism encourages business creation made it so that RPG developers could create a viable business using whatever resources they could muster to bring RPG games to us gamers.

I am not disagreeing, here. Even in socialist economies there is mostly private businesses operating, and these operate to make their owners money. I think that this is really quite OK.

If however, you drop 'producing a quality product' below 'making a profit' on your list of priorities, you cease to become a viable place for me to spend my money. That is my personal choice because I have become very fed up indeed with crappy stuff that doesn't last or that doesn't show a whit of creative and intelligent thought.

3e isn't there ... yet, but by dropping 'making a quality product' below 'making a profit' on their priority chart, they are in the same neck of the woods. Perhaps I am more strict than most, but this alone is enough that I no longer what to do business with them.

 

[Garmorn]

Colonel Hardisson,

Please, please remove the 8' sized chip off your shoulder. Did you happen to miss when I stated that I have munchkins in my HarnMaster game, just like d20 GMs have munchkins in their games?

Mobius, I have read most of this thread and must say you come across with more elitism then I have seen in years.

First you do say that all who play D&D are playing an inferior product because it is made for the "masses". That is some of the worst form of bigotry that can be. Lots of time the "more elite" produce is inferior but cost more only because a group of snobe says it does.

Second you are the ones make broad general statements and acting like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Now to the topic on hand. I have played both Harnmaster first and second edition and they are worst then most of the other 12+ game systems I have played. No way to determine the actual power level of spells execept by comparing them to a very small number of published spells, yet requiring any spell caste to create their own. A skill system that is far easier to abuse then D&D's and and skill improvement system that relies on DM's judgement almost all the time. A combat system that is so heavly influnced by a single factor and luck that it is almost impossible to survive unless you are heavly armored and luck.

I will stick with D&D because it is system that is easier to run, fits what I want and my players enjoy it. I won't use the Harn world because it is not the type of world I want. I prefer a more open world, where ever action does not affect the entire setting.

 

[Mobius]

Mobius, I have read most of this thread and must say you come across with more elitism then I have seen in years.

Perhaps that is because elitism is what you have come to expect and is what you look for first when you read posts that happen to state a preference for some other system than D&D. Seek and you shall generally find ... even if it isn't there.

D&D works for some people. It doesn't work for me. That is not elitism, that is personal preference.

Mobius, I have read most of this thread and must say you come across with more elitism then I have seen in years.

Do you understand the concept of reverse snobbery? Most of the folks here on the forum I have met are honestly decent people. Some are quite funny, some are insightful, most are normal, some are downright disturbing - a nice slice of life right here in RPG land.

And just like in real life, there are the closed minds that are so wedded to their personal choices that when someone says "I chose something else" they automatically see it as an attack on their own choices. Holy Cow! That guy chose a Ford and not a Chevy, that must mean he thinks all Chevy owners are idiots. Wait a minute, I'm a Chevy owner ... that means he thinks I'm an idiot. Get yer guns!

Not necessarily. He may have different priorities than the people who chose Chevys and so his choice was made differently. He may actually like Chevy owners. He may have Chevy owners that are his friends. He may even find the concept of lumping all the widely varied people that buy Chevys into the stupid-ass group 'Chevy Owners' to be ridiculous and prejudicial.

Nevertheless, the few closed minds can't possible live in a world where people might think rationally and still come to different results to the same questions, and so they attack, and attack. No, please, I can't possible live and let live!!!

This is what I have experienced in the past few posts. I like certain things and find others distasteful, just like I enjoy pecan pie and can't stand liver. This is life and humanity. If you can't deal with people disagreeing with you, then what are you doing in this forum?

 

[Speaker]

Hello all,

It's time for my first and likely-to-be-ignored ignored D20 post here on the Harn folk!

This being my first post to you, I thought I'd serve up a link to an interesting thread I spent considerible time mulling over, much to my regret. In it, some D20 players discuss problems they have/had haved with the Harn system in its various forms. It is in the ENWorld forums.

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22289

Personally, I agree with those who state that Harn is too time consuming and problematic in its presetation, as well as being all too linear in the initial stages of character developement. That said, I've played Harn for many, many years and have had a blast, but was never completely happy with the rules. Even the newest ideas I have recieved from fellow players-- who gave me vastly superior plans and ideas of implementation-- failed to fix the problems inherent with the character generation and other issues.

Having tired of low to null fantasy and unrealistic character/plot development, I wanted to switch to high fantasy and ended up switching to Forgotten Realms (the setting) and D&D 3e (the rules), because I could not make Harn fit my definition of what I wanted the game to be (both setting and rules), despite months of devoted tinkering. D&D 3e proved to be exactly what I was looking for. I probably could not and would not have appreciated or enjoyed D&D if I had stumbled across them in my teenage years, LOL, but now with the benefit of age, I am really enjoying them and wished I'd found them sooner (before blowing some big money on Harn stuff).

I had tired of seeing almost all of the new Harn ideas coming out catering to the low fantasy crowd, removing what I feel is special about fantasy settings. Most of these ideas from fellow Harn players were unusable for my game, and I was stuck buying only "crunchy bits" (to cobble together for my house rules) because I felt the quality of the adventures and world settings were such generic, terrible low fantasy "drivel" where little, if anything, made sense.

This post isn't to slam Harn (of course!) or those who play it, so don't get your dander up, folks. I had fun with the game but now that I've moved on to a new one, I can better appreciate the problems some people have with Harn/HarnMaster and the reasons behind it.

I thought the link above might shed some light on why some people are abandoning (or have already abandoned) Harn in favor of other systems (not necessarily D&D, although that is the most widely used system available).

For those frustrated souls seeking a more enjoyable, high fantasy alternative to Harn, you might want to check out D&D 3e by WotC.

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Now for something completely different:
a. If you didn't recognize this post, you've been in this thread too long. Stop flaming, turn off your computer, and walk away.
b. This post is born of sheer frustration. I come to the ENworld forums to have fun, and to pick up innovative tips for my campaign. I did not have to click on this thread, of course, but it did not have to be posted in the first place. Don't take the above as truth--I have certainly not played Harn, and as some others on this thread have indicated, would not now play with the system if it was the only one on the market. Thanks for ruining it's potential for me .
c. Thank you for your time. Enjoy your life.

DIE, Thread, DIE!

 

[Rothesay]

You know, I think other people may also echo what I'm going to say--

Kaptain Kantrip, you have put me off wanting anything to do with Harn. Here's why:

Great. Harn's a realistic system that encourages roleplaying. I'd heard of it before in those terms, and until I started reading your posts, I might have checked it out if I ran across it in a game store. I'm into story-based and character-based gaming (and I get story- and character-based games playing with the d20 system). One of the reasons I've been a little skeptical about Harn (besides some of the flaky ideas the setting appears to contain) is because of the apparent lack of rules transparancy with the Harnmaster rules. The d20 rules are simple and consistent enough to be transparent, which means they don't get in the way of telling an actual story. Other rules sets I've used don't have this transparancy.

But that's beside the point. I would've checked out Harn, if I ran across it, until I started reading your posts. Now that I know what sorts of players play Harn, I have less than no interest in playing. Getting into a rules set puts you into a slightly different community, with a slightly different culture. D20 puts you into the most diverse community. Storyteller puts you into a niche. GURPS puts you into a niche. Etc. (Yes, I'm aware that there are people who play a lot of different rules sets, and I don't think this fact conflicts with my comment about "community.") I don't want to be part of the Harn community. And you are the reason.

So thanks for steering me away from Harn.

This is unfortunate. This is my first (perhaps only) post here because I'm not a D20 player and came here because KK talked about this thread on the Harnforum and I was curious. My own bona fides are: Harn setting 1983 to present with AD&D2nd from 83-87 (with arms/claw/spell law); Harnmaster 1st from 88 to 01; Harnmaster Core currently.

I say it's unfortunate because KK is a very new 'convert' to Harn and he does act a bit like he's 'seen the light.' Not just here. He is in no way representative of most Harn players of my (long) experience, nor does it seem many of us come here - Patrick is (was?) an exception. Perhaps KK will move on from the evangelical stage, perhaps not, but please don't let one guy with all his weeks of playing Harn tar a twenty year old community.

You may wish to reconsider, you may not. D&D worked very well for me on Harn when I used it, one of the great things about the setting is it is independent of the rules, and I know people who use it without Harnmaster.

(As an aside, I'm not completely sure what you mean by 'rules transparency,' but I've never found HM to get in the way of the story - quite the opposite. I am curious what you find 'flaky,' but that may be asking for trouble. )

 

[derverdammte]

I say it's unfortunate because KK is a very new 'convert' to Harn and he does act a bit like he's 'seen the light.' Not just here. He is in no way representative of most Harn players of my (long) experience, nor does it seem many of us come here - Patrick is (was?) an exception. Perhaps KK will move on from the evangelical stage, perhaps not, but please don't let one guy with all his weeks of playing Harn tar a twenty year old community.

Well, it's two guys, actually. KK and Moebius. Patrick was okay, and if the Harn-related posts had been limited to his input, I might have wanted to check the Harnmaster rules out (although I don't think I'd like the setting much, based on what I've seen so far). As it is, though, they've left a bad taste in my mouth where anything Harn-related is concerned. So I'm sticking to the games and rulesets that fit my purposes: D&D, Pendragon, and CoC.

And one day, out of hope that people like Patrick represent some tiny percentage of the (already tiny) Harn-playing community, I might check it out. He's the only one (besides yourself) who was halfway rational and polite where the discussion was concerned.

And no, I don't think ColonelHardisson and Psion's (and others) responses to the discussion were unreasonable or even unjustified. ColonelHardisson in particular has been much more polite and reasonable than the current level of exchange warrants.

Honestly, after a few of the exchanges in this thread, I don't know why I'm following it anymore, except out of boredom.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Perhaps KK will move on from the evangelical stage, perhaps not, but please don't let one guy with all his weeks of playing Harn tar a twenty year old community.

It may be unfortunate, but (for me) the fans of something can have a large impact on my interest. I know there is at least one d20 company I don't buy due what seems to be their name thrown into every discussion by certain posters. The more someone pushes something- the less I want it.

Having said all that, I don't think KK is that way. I have seen him in other discussions where he does not bring up Harn. At least he started a post (regularly) to preach the glory of Harn. heh.

FD- who is very sorry he missed the communism vs capitalism debate