Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[tsadkiel]

That's the whole goddamn point of my posts---they are for people who are dissatisfied with d20, and are looking for a more realistic alternative and may or may not be aware of Harn, which I happen to advocate as an excellent alternative to hack-n-slash dungeon crawls.

Well, how're you doing? If you're persistantly failing to get your message across, the problem may not be with your audience - it may be with your approach.

For the record, here's what I'd do if I were you.

1.) Stop using phrases like "childish" and "silly" and "lowest common denominator" and "munchkin." No need to post complicated explanations about what you really meant, and how even though d20 is aimed at the LCD that doesn't mean that any given player is an idiot - just stop saying stuff like that. You'll instantly get a better reception.

2.) Don't talk about problems with d20; talk about what you like about Harn/HM. Harnmaster is a system in its own right, so treat it with the respect it deserves, rather than as a "fixed" d20.

3.) Contribute to the "more realism" threads on the House Rules boards. It'd be an excellent opportunity to slip in comments like, "Well in Harnmaster, it works like this . . ." And you'd be sure to be reaching an audience that is specifically looking for more realism, etc.

4.) Don't badmouth EN World and EN Worlders on another board. It's just petty. Not to mention the fact that message board affiliations are not absolute - you never know who's actually on both boards.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Like Harn poses any credible threat to unseating the D&D monster, or any chance of drawing a huge number of your fellow D&Ders away from the game and ENWorld! LOL, you guys (you know who you are, tiefling, mark, psion, doc klueless, etc.) would make me laugh if I weren't so frustrated by your childish antics and tired rhetoric. This post won't help matters any, but no post of mine will, since very few are willing to listen or conduct themselves in a rational manner (perhaps myself included at this point, LOL).

Er, I make you laugh? Childish antics? Tired rhetoric? All I wanted you to do is stop insulting the people you're trying to convert. I didn't realize that that qualified as childish antics and tired rhetoric.

You don't have to convert me. I already use bits and pieces of Harn in my games.

Edit: I just went over my previous posts in this thread to make sure, but I never once said that you couldn't criticize d20/D&D3e. Nope. Never said you couldn't state your opinion or that your opinions were flawed. I just wanted to know why you insist on insulting the people you're trying to convert to Harn.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

For the record, here's what I'd do if I were you.

Thanks for the input. That's constructive and helpful (even if I think some of it is creating a double standard I don't agree with), as opposed to some of the destructive and hurtful comments made by others.

However, I did not only contribute, but started, many threads on bringing "more realism" or more "mature subject matter" to d20, but now that I've given up on d20, I have little interest in following or commenting on them, let alone starting them. I swing by ENWorld maybe a few times a week to check up on the news and if there are any interesting treads going on, particularly those I might mine for ideas for my Harn game. Otherwise, I confine my messageboard activities to the Harn Forum. Most of the time at ENWorld, I just look around (as opposed to my previous billion posts a day) and then leave without mentioning Harn or replying to any threads.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Er, I make you laugh? Childish antics? Tired rhetoric? All I wanted you to do is stop insulting the people you're trying to convert. I didn't realize that that qualified as childish antics and tired rhetoric.

You don't have to convert me. I already use bits and pieces of Harn in my games.

Edit: I just went over my previous posts in this thread to make sure, but I never once said that you couldn't criticize d20/D&D3e. Nope. Never said you couldn't state your opinion or that your opinions were flawed. I just wanted to know why you insist on insulting the people you're trying to convert to Harn.

Sorry if I lumped you in with the others... hard to keep track of so many flames, LOL. Your posts were more innocuous than the others, now that I go back and checked, though you came in early with a joke that I felt was uncalled for, LOL.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to insult anyone until I was insulted... then I tried to limit my insults as much as possible (hard for a sharp-tongued guy like myself).

No hard feelings, Doc. This is the internet, after all, and holding grudges against invisible people you don't even know is rather silly.

Except Psion: We hatessss him, we doesssss... yes, my preciousss!

 

[Mobius]

Well, it's two guys, actually. KK and Moebius.

As I said before, all my posts have been solely defined as my opinion. I have taken great pains to ensure that I spoke only of the system and of the company. Any references made in response to my posts by the people here at EnWorld where they tried to escalate the debate into a personal attack on D&D players where there never was one, was purely because they read hatred into my words.

I even reiterated some of my posts in this regard to make them more clear. Bagpuss certainly seemed to understand after the clarification, so I wonder why some other people didn't. Did they not read my clarifications? Did they not understand my clarifications? Did they not care because it is way fun to single out an enemy and pick on him?

For the record, my statements so far are as follows:

1. I don't like companies that treat their customers with disrespect by making bad products simply so they can make more money.

2. I feel that WotC is currently pointed in this direction even if 3e is pretty good.

3. To my eyes, 3e appears designed to cater to munchkins - which is why I believe what I do in (2.)

4. I, as an owner of 3e, will express my displeasure at all the above by selling my 3e books.

5. Anyone who disagrees is free to do so and I hope they enjoy gaming, regardless of what system and world they use.

In sum toto, this what I have said, minus a bunch of dross and rhetoric and some asides on political theory. Look back at the same posts again and see if you can notice a change. Funny how I didn't say once that D&D players are like this or like that, though there are quite a few people who claim that I did. Could I have been misconstrued? Gosh, that's why I included the clarification.

And, yes, at the end, I did get angry that a couple of posters continually insisted that I was slamming d20 players because it almost seemed like they had an axe to grind and were intent on painting me into a corner where I most firmly did not want to be. If you folks - and you know who you are - want to create an enemy, do it with someone else.

 

[Mobius]

Thanks for changing your apparent tone. I appreciate that.

No problem.

I will say that I found the amount of defensiveness here rather offputting, even though it was only a few people that were really vocal about it. Aren't people allowed to disagree here?

 

[Breakdaddy]

On a related note, I would like to throttle the individual who coined the term "munchkin" in the RPG context.

 

[Tiefling]

I don't want to argue with you on that the fact that D&D 3e caters to powergaming, Mobius - I agree. But how does this come as any sort of surprise, considering that the previous versions of the game were the same? I'd say that 3e is MORE accomadating to role-playing than then the previous editions.

Also, #1-3 on your list seem to contend that products that cater to powergaming are bad, and that it's disrespectful to the public to publish them. Why is that so? I don't enjoy that style of play, but tons of people must, for the game to sell like this. You say that WotC is moving towards an attitude of treating its customers like morons. Are you saying that powergaming is a moronic activity? If so, why?

 

[Mobius]

I'd say that 3e is MORE accomadating to role-playing than then the previous editions.

I can see where by paring out the feats and the prestige classes and switching to Ken Hood's rules, I could make something that is very workable because the core mechanics have been greatly improved. Nonetheless, I feel that D&D has been getting more geared to powergaming over time rather than less, so my opinion is diametrically opposed to yours I guess. Same products, different opinions. Go figure.

Also, #1-3 on your list seem to contend that products that cater to powergaming are bad, and that it's disrespectful to the public to publish them. Why is that so? I don't enjoy that style of play, but tons of people must, for the game to sell like this.

I can see where you might interpret my list in this fashion, so let me try and clarify.

Up to a certain point, widening the popularity of a product (especially a niche one like RPGs) is most definitely a good thing for both the consumer and the company. Sales go up, prices go down, and the initial changes to the product are pretty minor and essentially stylistic in nature.

After that point, additional changes start affecting the overall quality of the product, because you can no longer just change the style to attract more people, you have to change the content somehow. With RPGs, this would likely mean dropping the writing level down or simplifying the conceptual basis for the ruleset. Eventually, you widen the net as far as you can, but the product is by now getting useless to the individual customer. It is slightly useful for everyone and completely useful to no one, if you get my drift.

To me, WotC is on the first step, and the changes they made are generally good from the perspective of the gaming community. The movie industry, again to me, is on the second step. They cut movies to specific lengths to maximize throughput. They simplify plots and characters. They make drastic changes to historical accuracy to cater to focus groups. Real changes to the quality of films have been made in order to maximize profitability and applicability.

Of course, WotC has not gone to this extreme, so my comments on the film industry do not currently apply in the RPG industry. I don't honestly want to be around if WotC does go the way of the film industry and makes RPG products that are understandable to the slowest person among us.

Nevertheless, my fear is that in the future, when sales are again lagging, there will be another attempt to make D&D more popular ... perhaps a drop in the level of the writing to accomodate folks with less education. Then perhaps another change down the pipe to make the concepts easier to understand, etc., etc. ... ad nauseum. Once started, this process of widening the net often never stops.

When Mr. Dancey admitted that D&D 3e could have been more elegant, but they focused more on making it popular, to me that was an admission that this was the road they had decided to start on, and I find respecting a choice like this very difficult. Many may disagree with this assesment of the quotation and are perfectly within their rights to do so. In the end, if the way the product was made satisfies you, then buy it. It doesn't satisfy me ... and I quite honestly can't help thinking the way I do.

Part of making the product more popular was to lean more in the powergaming area, IMO. That is neither inherently bad or inherently good. If, like me, you abhor powergaming, this will undoubtedly be seen as a 'bad' move because it means you have to put in more effort to get the system to fit what you want. If, on the other hand, you are a powergamer (there seem to be a lot of them), then this move is undoubtedly a 'good' move because the system is more in line with your likes and dislikes. Neither group is moronic or stupid, they just have different preferences and the product currently leans away from mine and towards someone else's.

So, there you have the two reasons for my decision to sell my 3e books: I think that WotC has moved down the wrong path in product development, even if this first step was a very good one as far as sales are concerned *and* their product no longer fits the bill for me because of the changes. Both are viable reasons for not choosing this product, from my perspective

I am realistic. I am 33 and no longer in the 'core' D&D group, so WotC is going to be much less interested in my money than in creating a new batch of gamers in young people. I can accept that and also accept that the bulk of gamers do not play the way I do - as evidenced by the sales of 3e. No big deal. I'll just buy from a company that *is* catering to my market segment.

You say that WotC is moving towards an attitude of treating its customers like morons.

What I said is precisely what I had written. This is your personal *interpretation* of what I wrote.

Nevertheless, to respond in the light in which I think you intended...

It is a long way from that, but the proper business mindset is now entrenched for it to get this bad in the future. I quite honestly hope that this never happens.

Are you saying that powergaming is a moronic activity? If so, why?

No, not at all ... just that it doesn't float my boat. I will admit that I quite honestly do not get the point of it. Fight nameless monster, powerup, fight another nameless monster, levelup, repeat, but there are a lot of things I don't understand.

My room mate plays Madden 2003 and wins every game 50+ to zip. I get bored in about ten seconds flat with that game because I too have no challenge, but he seems to quite enjoy racking up the points against a bunch of computer pylons. I don't understand *this*, either, but I am not about to make him give up something he likes to do. Instead of playing Madden, I just play something else that *does* challenge me.

Which is the detente that I want to meet with the powergamers. Play how you see fit, but let me also play how I see fit. If we can meet at the same gaming table and accomplish this, then I am all for it because I find diversity stimulating. Unfortunately, in my experience, I have found my style of gaming to clash very strongly with powergaming and so I have chosen to keep the two types of players separate so that everyone can enjoy themselves.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

You tell him, Mobius!

***ducks and covers***