Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Mobius]

Jesus H. read my goddamn posts, you idiot.

Colonel Hardisson, I am very sorry I resorted to calling you an idiot. I was very frustrated with your apparent inability to see my point, defensive because I had been called an idiot by two different posters the previous day, and more than a bit tipsy.

I should have waited to respond until I was calmer and in a better mindset.

Once again, I apologize.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Uh-oh, Mobius! Don't make this "reformed alcoholic" start preaching temperance in a bar at you...

 

[Horacio]

Uh-oh, Mobius! Don't make this "reformed alcoholic" start preaching temperance in a bar at you...

Kap, guy, I miss the time of your happy 'I love Spycraft" posts...

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I still love Spycraft! If you want d20 at its best, buy Spycraft! That game kicked my ass! Woohoo!

 

[Horacio]

I still love Spycraft! If you want d20 at its best, buy Spycraft! That game kicked my ass! Woohoo!

That's the Kaptain Kantrip we know and love! (well, maybe not exactly love, but at least donn't hate )

 

[derverdammte]

The very first d20 person that I encountered online was Ryan Dancey, and he and I had a very heated argument about WotC's motives for putting out d20 in the first place. If any of you have personally met him, then you will understand that he is intelligent and a gifted speaker, but that he is very, very sold on his own rhetoric. He is just as much an evangelical as KK is, and Ryan has the benefit of a much bigger pulpit to pound.

I'd compare him more to John Wick/Tynes than KK. Usually he's an interesting read, but I don't always like his attitude.

Actually, I'd only compare him to Wick in terms of attitude and rhetoric, I guess. His statements are usually much more intelligent than Wick's.

 

[WizarDru]

Well, I've read the whole thread.

And I'm afraid that I will now strenously avoid Harn from this point forward.

 

[Desdichado]

There are few things more tiring about Internet debates than the trend of someone who comes out all full of spit and vinegar, making absurd, insulting claims, and then watch him back-pedal like hell to "clarify" his previous posts as well as throw in tons of that wretched "misunderstood victim" by those who are "too defensive."

Actually, when KK was posting, even though I disagree with him, the thread was interesting to read. Now it's a textbook flamebait case. I think I'll pass.

 

[Garmorn]

Perhaps that is because elitism is what you have come to expect and is what you look for first when you read posts that happen to state a preference for some other system than D&D. Seek and you shall generally find ... even if it isn't there.

One of these days I hope to learn how to express my self. Online.

My appoligies. It was suppose to more a statement on how you were sounding then a critizim about you. (One reason I don't post often).

Back on topic. While I agree 3e could have been more elequent, making it more popular does not means it is aimed at the powergamer. I saw it as an effort to be more flexible. To beable to cover a wider spread of styles. The draw back that more flexible a system becomes the less likly it will be the perfect match to a system or style. Harn is a very good low magic setting and rules system. For powergames there is Hackmaster which does that type of game very well. Both are more defined at the cost of being of overall flexibilty. GURPS is another very flexible game but to many its approach is both number heavy and to some extend over flexible and undifined.

 

[LokiDR]

Mobius, you have gone from

Originally posted by Mobius

My credo is that substandard people subscribe to the cult of the substandard. WotC fails on both counts. They are substandard people because they care more about the money in our collective wallets than they do about the people that own the wallets. They also purposefully put out a substandard product they knew could have been better.

Maybe you are OK with half-assed treatment and a half-assed product, but it takes more than that to get my money.

to

Nevertheless, my fear is that in the future, when sales are again lagging, there will be another attempt to make D&D more popular ... perhaps a drop in the level of the writing to accomodate folks with less education. Then perhaps another change down the pipe to make the concepts easier to understand, etc., etc. ... ad nauseum. Once started, this process of widening the net often never stops.

First, I want to say that any sort of "slippery slope" argument is logically invalid, unless you can actually use those nifty higher level divinations spells .

Next, I want to say that I agree with conceptual approach WotC has taken with the game. I believe that you need a strong ruleset to build an effective game off of. When the novelty of powergaming wears off, and those who only like that aspect have moved on, those of us that are left will be left with a rule set we understand so can build any kind of role playing experience we want.

Then, I would like to say I am glad you realize that D&D is not aimed at you. Why then do you need to call it sub-standard? I like the game. I think it was well designed for its core audience, and the underlying d20 system can be modified to fit any number of purposes. Your opinion that it doesn't fit your style is a good observation. Your opinion that it is low quality, or at least going there, is a tacit comment on those that play it unless you have proof to back it up.

I know you have answered all of these kinds of statements before, and I don't care if you answer this. I have been watching this thread for a long and want to put in my comments but not get caught in pointless bickering. If you want to discuss D&D for those it was targetted at, reply to this.