Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[derverdammte]

One other thing:

This is an unpersuasive way to promote your favorite setting and rules:

I just started playing Pendragon, and it totally rules! It's so much better than that d20 stuff I used to play, because it's marketed towards adults and not a bunch of immature preteens. It's this great model of the Arthurian sagas, and you can play a knight! And best of all, you don't have d20's crappy system where you get loads and loads of hit points until someone can't even hurt you most of the time. Instead, you only get a few hitpoints, based on your size and Con, and it can take months to recover from injuries. But this is balanced out, because armor absorbs damage! That's right, you don't have to deal with some silly AC system that really oversimplifies combat!

(etc.)

This is a persuasive way to promote your favorite setting and rules:

I just picked up Pendragon a few weeks ago, and it is totally my new favorite game! It follows the storyline of the arthurian legends, and the rules really do a great job of modeling a lot of the stuff you actually see happening in Morte d'Arthur. In fact, it's like a mix of the literary Arthur and the movie Excalibur. In Pendragon, you typically play a knight, who has a bloodline and everything, and you can keep track of fame, glory, and land. You even go on quests and hunts, which is half the fun! Also, it's a lot easier to get seriously injured in this game, which adds a great element of risk and promotes strategic thinking.

(etc.)

And yes, in the second example, you can have someone say, "well, d20 already does that stuff--are you saying this is better?" And you can say, "yes, I know it does that stuff, but Pendragon appeals to me more. But it's all about your style of play. It's a neat ruleset and setting, though--you should check it out!"

Is there a difference? I think so.

 

[Mobius]

Now that I know what sorts of players play Harn, I have less than no interest in playing.

The very first d20 person that I encountered online was Ryan Dancey, and he and I had a very heated argument about WotC's motives for putting out d20 in the first place. If any of you have personally met him, then you will understand that he is intelligent and a gifted speaker, but that he is very, very sold on his own rhetoric. He is just as much an evangelical as KK is, and Ryan has the benefit of a much bigger pulpit to pound.

Had I made the stereotypical assumption that all d20 folk were as narrow-minded and obsessed as Ryan seems to me to be, then I would never have set foot in this forum. Of course, such a pre-emptive decision would have been grossly unfair to the fine people here at EnWorld.

Thank God that I didn't make that mistake. Having come here by following a link out of curiosity, I managed to glean a heck of a lot of campaign ideas from the stories on the site, neat ideas on converting d20 to a lower-fantasy system, alternative worlds that are low-fantasy, and I even managed to meet some very intelligent and creative folks. I also met some jerks, but that is the nature of community - there will always be the good cheek by jowl with the bad.

Which is precisely what he have in the Harn community, too.

So, for the open-minded and courageous here at EnWorld, I offer an open invitation to come and experience Harn by visiting the HarnForum. There is a spot all set out on the forum to discuss other systems and other worlds, so feel free to stop in and visit. Harn is quite literally the most amazing fantasy world I have ever encountered in my 20 years of gaming, and you owe it to yourselves as gamers to make an educated decision on whether it might work for you.

If you come away still playing in x world with y system, then you - like me after my visit here - will still probably walk away with lots of fodder for the creative mill, a new appreciation for the community, and a wider view on the RPG world at large. That's never a bad thing.

Remember, though, that the statement: "Harn players are ..." is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the statement says. The same thing applies to: "All D&D players are ..." Sweeping prejudicial statements like these do nobody proud.

 

[derverdammte]

If you come away still playing in x world with y system, then you - like me after my visit here - will still probably walk away with lots of fodder for the creative mill, a new appreciation for the community, and a wider view on the RPG world at large. That's never a bad thing.

Remember, though, that the statement: "Harn players are ..." is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the statement says. The same thing applies to: "All D&D players are ..." Sweeping prejudicial statements like these do nobody proud.

This works for me. As much as I may disagree with some of your previous statements (even to the point of thinking they're not reasonable statements to make), I like your approach in this post. I looked at Patrick's encounters document a while ago, and sometime I may check out the HarnMaster rules, if I happen across them--in spite of all of KK's posts.

Thanks for changing your apparent tone. I appreciate that.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Neat! I'm now the Ryan Dancey of Harn!

I feel like dancey-ing! ***shakes his booty on the groove floor***

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

One other thing:

This is an unpersuasive way to promote your favorite setting and rules:

I just started playing Pendragon, and it totally rules! It's so much better than that d20 stuff I used to play, because it's marketed towards adults and not a bunch of immature preteens. It's this great model of the Arthurian sagas, and you can play a knight! And best of all, you don't have d20's crappy system where you get loads and loads of hit points until someone can't even hurt you most of the time. Instead, you only get a few hitpoints, based on your size and Con, and it can take months to recover from injuries. But this is balanced out, because armor absorbs damage! That's right, you don't have to deal with some silly AC system that really oversimplifies combat!

(etc.)

This is a persuasive way to promote your favorite setting and rules:

I just picked up Pendragon a few weeks ago, and it is totally my new favorite game! It follows the storyline of the arthurian legends, and the rules really do a great job of modeling a lot of the stuff you actually see happening in Morte d'Arthur. In fact, it's like a mix of the literary Arthur and the movie Excalibur. In Pendragon, you typically play a knight, who has a bloodline and everything, and you can keep track of fame, glory, and land. You even go on quests and hunts, which is half the fun! Also, it's a lot easier to get seriously injured in this game, which adds a great element of risk and promotes strategic thinking.

(etc.)

And yes, in the second example, you can have someone say, "well, d20 already does that stuff--are you saying this is better?" And you can say, "yes, I know it does that stuff, but Pendragon appeals to me more. But it's all about your style of play. It's a neat ruleset and setting, though--you should check it out!"

Is there a difference? I think so.

No difference to me. Either post would have swayed me to check out Pendragon if I was dissatisfied with D&D/d20.

That's the whole goddamn point of my posts---they are for people who are dissatisfied with d20, and are looking for a more realistic alternative and may or may not be aware of Harn, which I happen to advocate as an excellent alternative to hack-n-slash dungeon crawls. The fact that this upsets so many diehard d20ers, who feel utterly compelled to come here and interrupt my conversation with their flamebait, insults and lame jokes, is the problem I have with ENWorld.

Why I can't bring up some flaws with d20 and talk about other options (such as Harn) for those who share my concerns is a testiment to just how close-minded, immature and confrontational many ENWorlders are! No matter what I say or how I say it, I am crucified. **climbs down from his cross for a moment** And another thing, I can't believe how threatened you guys feel by me stopping by every once in awhile to say "I love Harn, maybe you will love Harn too!"

Like Harn poses any credible threat to unseating the D&D monster, or any chance of drawing a huge number of your fellow D&Ders away from the game and ENWorld! LOL, you guys (you know who you are, tiefling, mark, psion, doc klueless, etc.) would make me laugh if I weren't so frustrated by your childish antics and tired rhetoric. This post won't help matters any, but no post of mine will, since very few are willing to listen or conduct themselves in a rational manner (perhaps myself included at this point, LOL).

Maybe I should change my nick to Kaptain Kool Kantrip so my acronym would be KKK, and you guys can have another reason to love to hate me, haha! Sheesh.

And if you knew Patrick on the Harn Forum, you wouldn't exactly call him the nicest, most diplomatic person...

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

It may be unfortunate, but (for me) the fans of something can have a large impact on my interest. I know there is at least one d20 company I don't buy due what seems to be their name thrown into every discussion by certain posters. The more someone pushes something- the less I want it.

Having said all that, I don't think KK is that way. I have seen him in other discussions where he does not bring up Harn. At least he started a post (regularly) to preach the glory of Harn. heh.

I will use the above to clarify my position that I am not "out to get D&D or ENWorld" and I have no dastardly agenda behind my posts other than to share the fact that I love Harn and it works better for me than d20. Again, the point of my Harn posts is to speak to a wider audience of gamers (that's ENWorld) about Harn and how it can be used as an option if you are having problems with D&D/d20. I don't expect mass conversions. I just thought my posts would be helpful and of interest to a few gamers, who, like myself, couldn't quite get D&D/d20 to do what we wanted. I'm sure most people here are perfectly happy with d20 and that's fine with me and I'm happy for them. But they shouldn't be so blind to think that not everyone at ENWorld is as happy with D&D/d20 as they are, and that those people have a right to discuss problems and solutions to their dilemma, even if those solutions lead to gaming another system, like HarnMaster, or another setting, like Harn World.

At least some people here that "get" what I'm about and what I'm trying to do, and that it does not threaten their whole gaming world view, LOL. Thanks, Furn.

Hmm.. Here I am, trying to be civil and self-censoring again. Let's see how long it takes for the flaming vultures to descend upon me, eh?

 

[Henry]

KK, don't forget to start printing out all your hate e-mail and start posting it to your office door.

I originally followed the start of this thread, skipped most of the middle, and checked out the last page or so (probably the most intelligent thing I could have done, given some of the comments about the thread), but I have to say I am glad cooler heads are prevailing. I have looked at some Harn materials, and find it interesting, though incompatible with our gaming style. I may mine it for ideas, but thanks all for bringing them up.

 

[Tiefling]

Like Harn poses any credible threat to unseating the D&D monster, or any chance of drawing a huge number of your fellow D&Ders away from the game and ENWorld! LOL, you guys (you know who you are, tiefling, mark, psion, doc klueless, etc.) would make me laugh if I weren't so frustrated by your childish antics and tired rhetoric.

Which is kind of odd, considering that I started out in this thread supporting your position, until you decide to extend it from not just pointing out a few problems with d20 and why you like HarnMaster, but also to saying that powergaming is childish and inherently inferior to intense role-playing. Don't bother denying that you've said that, I guarantee that it won't convince anyone.

 

[BryonD]

That's the whole goddamn point of my posts---they are for people who are dissatisfied with d20, and are looking for a more realistic alternative and may or may not be aware of Harn, which I happen to advocate as an excellent alternative to hack-n-slash dungeon crawls. The fact that this upsets so many diehard d20ers, who feel utterly compelled to come here and interrupt my conversation with their flamebait, insults and lame jokes, is the problem I have with ENWorld.

Why I can't bring up some flaws with d20 and talk about other options (such as Harn) for those who share my concerns is a testiment to just how close-minded, immature and confrontational many ENWorlders are! No matter what I say or how I say it, I am crucified. **climbs down from his cross for a moment** And another thing, I can't believe how threatened you guys feel by me stopping by every once in awhile to say "I love Harn, maybe you will love Harn too!" [/B]

If you believe this is an accurate summary of your posts, then that simply shows how firmly your blinders are bolted on.

You come in insulting D20 from the start and then try to claim that you are abused when people make justifiable repsonses.

I do not believe a single person is threatened by Harn. A lot of people being angry over childish and unsubstantiated insults is a far cry from threatened.

 

[Tiefling]

Don't get me wrong, KK, I'm very happy that you've found a system that suites your tastes more than d20 obviously does.

I mean, you are going to stop posting to d20 boards such as this, right?