Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've always thought the game is what you made of it. Rolling the dice is just a way to progress the story. If Harn doesn't slow down gameplay (read: fun) then more power to you. That is unless you like slow games. :)

I like d20 because there's a large community that uses it. If I run into a issue, I have almost umlimited resources to aid me. And at this point I've invested too much in d20 to really look at other systems. Plus, I am happy with it. It's not perfect but no game is. :)

Note: I have no idea if Harn is any faster than d20. Altho I like to think the system is flexible enough to do whatever kind of game you like...

It is good to keep an open mind. That's the only way to keep things fresh. It would be a sad day if people only played d20.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Re: level advancement

Codragon said:
I'm not saying fifth level fighters should be afraid of every peasant with a pitchfork - but not totally unafraid either. In D&D, a 5th level fighter can charge a 1st level one with no fear whatsoever for his life. That shouldn't always be so in a "realistic" game.

How does the 5th level fighter know he is facing a 1st level fighter and vice versa? Does everyone have a number indicating their level floating above their heads or something? Are all characters blessed with telepathy? What?
 

I am starting a Rolemaster campaign for similar reasons.

It is still somewhat high fantasy (has decent amount of spell users..though magic items not so common)

But is also much darker and deadlier than D&D is (meaning even lowly orcs could kill a high level guy).

My players seem to enjoy it more, and as a DM i enjoy it more.

Nothing particularly wrong with 3E just seems a little too cartoonish (not the right word). Or too High of high fantasy maybe.

Apop
 

Psion said:


To be frank, it sounds to me like you aren't using the system right. Is this DC anywhere in an official source? If so, it sounds off. Climbing a knotted rope should be fairly easy.

Unknotted rope. And yes, without a wall to brace against that's DC 15.

Rule of thumb: if you want a character with a skill modifier of X to consistently be able to perform a task, assign it a DC of 10+X. That way, the character will always be able to perform the task while taking 10.

Rolling the dice in a situation where you could normally take 10 should only be done when under duress, i.e., in combat, etc.

I think the intent there (i.e. performing a task is more difficult in combat) makes sense, but the execution is off. It shouldn't go from "always succeeding" to "succeeding half the time" with nothing in between. Having a couple dire rats nipping at your heels shouldn't make climbing a rope much (if any) harder, while having a couple ogres whacking at your head should make it much harder. But either way, it seems to me that under a given set of circumstances one should almost always succeed or almost always fail.

To have a non-skill example, a 1st-level fighter with 10 strength should be infinitely better at killing things than a 1st-level commoner with 10 strength. Not that a 1st-level fighter shouldn't be afraid of a horde of commoners, but he should be able to defeat a single one on a pretty consistent basis. But if the commoner's fighting with a club, and is proficient with it, the fighter will only succeed in combat where the commoner fails 1/20th of the time. Even if the commoner were to fight with a sword and not be proficient with it, the fighter will still only succeed where he fails 1/4th of the time. Doesn't that sound a little off?
 

apropos of nothing, the reason why i switched to 3e from GURPS and other systems is because it is unrealistic and high fantasy in flavor.

i got incredibly bored of playing games where everyone was afraid of combat because "even the lowliest orc could kill a great warrior." where there was very little magic, monsters, treasure, etc. i want fantasy and fantastical elements in the game!

i don't want to be in a game with a bunch of paranoid cowards (something i see all too often in highly deadly "realistic" systems). i want to be in a game with daredevils!

if i wanted realism, i'd go outside and experience it. i role-play for escape from realism. i don't want to be Joe Peasant, i want to be Joe Hero.

OK, that's my rant. :)
 

"But either way, it seems to me that under a given set of circumstances one should almost always succeed or almost always fail."

So for example, in your 'realistic' system a character should either almost always hit a bull's eye in darts or almost always miss the board? Real world skills don't work like that. I'm a pretty darn good canoer, but that doesn't mean that I can't run the same stretch of rapids and run up onto the rock X% of the time. However, if I had a few more ranks...

Look at it this way, either you can climb the unknotted rope or you almost always fail. If you have +5 climb, you can take 10 and never fall off the rope under normal circumstances. If you have +4 climb, you can climb the rope 50% of the time, and half the time you fail to climb it, you fall off. If you have +0 climb, you can hang onto the rope and never fall off (until you fatigue) but you can only climb it 25% of the time, and most the time that you don't manage to climb it you fall off. Isn't this exactly what you are asking for?

"To have a non-skill example, a 1st-level fighter with 10 strength should be infinitely better at killing things than a 1st-level commoner with 10
strength."

Err... why? That's a pretty arbitrary decision, and infinite is a pretty big number. If you really like mechanics like this, perhaps you should switch to Amber or another diceless system.

"But if the commoner's fighting with a club, and is proficient with it, the fighter will only succeed in combat where the commoner fails 1/20th of the time...Doesn't that sound a bit off."

Just a bit, but the problem is with you. Run a few combats between 1st level fighters and 1st level commoners a couple of times and tell me who wins. Assume for a moment both are 'average'. First of all, one of the fighters big advantages is that he has armor proficiency, which he is probably taking advantage of. If he isn't he really isn't getting the most of his (limited) training as a fighter. (Now we could complain that one of D&D's big problems is how it handles armor but that is another discussion and not the one you raised.) If we put the fighter in scale mail and give him a shield vs. the commoner with a club, suddenly things become very different than you describe. But, we don't even have to do that. The fighter still kicks butt even if we don't put either side in armor.

The fighter has +1 BAB, which permits him to take a wide variaty of combat feats that the commoner doesn't have access to. Plus, his training as a fighter gives him an extra combat feat. So, if we persume that the fighter has say 'Weapon Focus (longsword)' and 'Toughness' as feats, then our poor commoner is suddenly even further behind. Sure, we could give 'Toughness' to the commoner too, but then if the fight was tough wouldn't it be understandable because it was a 'tough' commoner (say a salty sailor or a wiry miner or a hefty blacksmith)? More likely, commoner's have feats like skill focus (profession X).

So, in the end we have a fighter with a +2 to hit and 9 h.p. and a longsword (1d8 damage) vs. a farmer with 3 h.p. and a club (1d6 damage). How many times in 10 will the fighter win?

About 40% of the time when the fighter swings, he drops the peasant outright. Another 25% of the time, he wounds the peasant. Any two wounds are better than 98% likely to drop the peasant.

About 55% of the time when the peasant swings, he wounds the fighter. He cannot drop the fighter in one swing. One average he needs 3 hits to do so, or roughly 6 rounds. But the odds that he makes it that long are left as a problem for the interested student.

The problem becomes even more extreme when we add things like armor (remember those armor proficiencies) and give the fighter better physical stats than the commoner.

However, that a first _first_ level fighter needs to fear (slightly) a first level commoner is simply a matter of his inexperience. First level anything is supposed to represent 'green'.
 
Last edited:

Hi, this post is about Harn, the REAL ULTIMATE GAME WORLD. This POST is awesome. My name is Erstwhile and I can't stop thinking about Harn. Harn is cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

Facts:

1. Harn is an island populated by mammals, and Gargun, and Ivashu.
2. Characters on Harn fight ALL the time.
3. The purpose of Harn is to have a place for characters to flip out and be killed by things.

Testimonial:

Characters on Harn can be killed by anything! Characters on Harn get their heads cut off ALL the time and don't even think twice about it. Harn characters are so crazy and awesome that they flip out ALL the time. I heard that in one game there was this Harn character who was eating at a tavern in Thay. And when some servant dropped a spoon the character killed the whole city! My friend Kaptain Kantrip said that in another game a Harn PC totally stabbed some serf just because the serf threw some water out a window.

And that's what I call a REAL Ultimate Game World!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you don't believe that Harn is the REAL Ultimate Game World you better get a life right now or your character will never get his head chopped off!!! It's an easy choice, if you ask me.

Harn is sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. Harn is totally awesome and that's a fact. Harn is fast, smooth, cool, gritty, low-magic, and sweet. I can't wait to start a new Harn campaign next week. I love Harn with all of my body (including my dice bag).

Q and A:.

Q: Why is everyone so obsessed about Harn?
A: Harn is the ultimate paradox. On the one hand there's a lot of stuff to know in it, but on the other hand, it's very organized and precise.


Q: I heard that Harn PCs are all shepherds or dung shovellers. What's their problem?
A: Whoever told you that is a total liar. Just like PCs in other game worlds, Harn PCs can be dung shovellers OR totally awesome knights or Vikings.

Q: What do Harn PCs do when they're not flipping out or getting their heads cut off?
A: Most of their free time is spent making Skill Maintenance checks or managing a manor, but sometime they stab. (Ask Patrick if you don't believe me.)

Erstwhile
Harniac, sometime D20 user and webmaster of www.REALULTIMATEHARN.com.*

*Not a real website. :D
 
Last edited:

Petrosian said:

Why would you need RULES for this? A class is a set of abilities to represent an archtype in the campaign. PRCs even more tend to reflect specific groups within the campaign itself. I don't need rules to tell me whether the Knight of the ShireWood have bonuses against their traditional enemies, do I?

Again, why would i need RULES for this. If the feat progression i create accomplishes my goal, it is good.

Before I could convince you of why rules are needed for these things, I would have to convince you that the statement in your signature is wrong:

"Balance and imbalance start, run, and end with the GM and the GM alone. No rule, no system, no player, just GM."

Yeah, the GM can tailor the game so that imbalances inherant in the rules do not affect play, but it gets to be a little forced and contrived after a while. It would be preferable if a GM could work on an adventure with mostly the story to worry about and spend minimal energy making sure everyone can contribute to the group effort (assuming your players are role playing people in a party and there is a group effort, and not individuals moving seperately).

There are some basic guidelines for creating new spells in the DMG. Spells are subdivided into levels to help gadge when they should become available to PCs. But there are hundreds of feats out there with a wide range of power and no obvious indicator of their strength. And how many of these feats are so (comparatively) underpowered that they have *never* been chosen by a player? Likewise, there are hundreds of prestige classes now that are obviously out of balance (Red Avenger vs Templar or Ninja of the Crescent Moon? And these are the WotC prestige classes!) There needs to be concrete rules on how to assign prerequisites and design these things. Perhaps feats should be organized into tiers like spell levels.

Most classes have what i call a DYNAMIC equilibruim as opposed to a STATIC equilibrium. This appears to have been a design goal of 3e.

In some case, the fighter is clearly the superior choice for solving the problems, given his abilities. In other cases, the Wizard is. in others the cleric is. That means IF the GM applies a reasonablely diverse series of situations and challenges, each class will get his niche scratched now and again.

I have not seen any class "useless" out of a dungeon at all.

I have to disagree with you here. The fighter is good at fighting. THAT'S IT. Put a 20th lvl rogue in a cage and he might be able to pick the lock. The 20th lvl wizard could disintegrate the bars, teleport, summon some monsters to help him, ethereal jaunt, etc., etc. The 20th lvl fighter? "Well, I could fight really well if someone lets me out!" :) IMO, spell casters are clearly more often able to tackle general problems then non spell casters (excluding rangers and paladins who have a small spell list). If you're unconvinced, picture each D&D class in our world, would the ability to fight really well be worth the power to turn invisible, charm people, summon minions, teleport, move really fast, and fly?

I said the dungeon setting was limitted because:
* You fight most everything you meet.
* There often isn't time for wizards and clerics to prepare the spells that are best for a given situation. Usually, in story focused adventures and everyday life, there would be.

People will often say non-spellcasters can acquire magical items to do all the things that the spell casters can do, but who makes these magical items? The spellcasters.

Thats not a system issue, however, tho YMMV.

Since I have no idea what YMMV means, no comment :)
 

Erstwhile said:
Hi, this post is about Harn, the REAL ULTIMATE GAME WORLD. This POST is awesome. My name is Erstwhile and I can't stop thinking about Harn. Harn is cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.
ROTFLMAO!:D
 


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top