Discussing problems with D&D/d20 rules...

[Ravellion]

Additionally, if the DC for climbing an unknotted rope is 15, the Str 16 guy with no ranks in Climb will only be able to climb it about half the time. Let's face it, either you can climb a rope or you can't. None of this "I couldn't climb it that time, but suddenly I figured it out! Hey, wait, now I can't climb it anymore... wait a minute, yes I can!"

I've always seen that as an abstraction for how much time it will take to get to the top of the rope.

Rav

 

[Bragg Battleaxe]

I think its cool how HARN looks like HARM! I LOVE THAT! Only someone with my perceptive skills would have noticed that.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I don't think you've found gaming Nirvana yet. If you had achieved Nirvana, you'd be at peace with yourself without the need for others to applaud your arrival.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I've always seen that as an abstraction for how much time it will take to get to the top of the rope.

Rav

Actually, if you don't have someone else below you on the rope, they're amazingly easy to climb. All you really need is someone to show you how to do it and 30 seconds later you're there.

 

[Erstwhile]

If you do like this level of "gritty", do you really think that D20 can provide it? [snip] I can guess what the "harnatics" might say. I see d20 as a quick and dirty RPG system. The more realistic you get, the more variables you need to take into effect, the more rules you need, the longer the game takes. Perfect realism would allow the possibility for any wound to become infected and ultimately fatal.

I personally think D&D CAN do "gritty" but it does take extensive tweaking, particularly the magic rules and hit points. The "massive damage" threshold is a step in that direction as far as hit points go, but for some reason that mechanic has always felt sort of arbitrary and artificial...but that's just a question of taste, I'm sure.

But that said, and not to harp on the subject, HarnWorld is not system-specific, nor style-specific, and it can handle varying levels of "realism". The major problem with going the high-magic route (and I'm not saying all D&D is high-magic) on Harn is that the canon materials tend to be quite low-magic; no flying ships, no armies of dragons, etc., and so it can be tough to explain why the world is so similar to Terran medieval society when there's so much magic around! But there is no real problem with using "levels" and "hit points" in Harn.

For a thread on Harniacs and their playing styles, you can check out: http://www.shadowharn.net/viewtopic.php?t=899

As for the rules, HarnMaster is details-heavy, but it's actually not rules-heavy. I have found that HarnMaster combats run at about the same level of complexity and time as 3E combats...sometimes MORE smoothly. Though I have had one HM combat where it went on...and on...and on...but that was because it was two heavily armoured knights who just couldn't roll well enough to get through each other's armour!

And yes, HM has rules for infection. Though the survival rates are far higher than IRL; a nod to the fact that players would rather have their characters fall in battle than waste away from infection.

And we prefer the more politically correct term "Harniacs" to the far less urbane term "harnatics".

E.

 

[Keith_Mann]

Just a couple of things about Harn:

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that Harn (i.e., the setting, HarnWorld) is intended for those who want "realism". I don't personally think that's true; Harn is very much a fantasy setting and it's well-suited to those who want to run a "fantasy" game. That said, Harn is more consistent than many other fantasy settings that I've seen. By that, I simply mean that things in Harn make sense: its cultures, its history, the settlement patterns of its inhabitants, etc. -- all of this things are logical. That doesn't mean that they're realistic (although, insofar as Harn is based on medieval Britain, it is quite historically accurate); it just means that the authors have created a fantasy world in a logical way. For me, as a GM, this is great. It gives me a solid foundation upon which I can build my own extensions to the world. Furthermore, it makes for great roleplaying, because the consistency makes it much easier to suspend disbelief and really immerse yourself in the game.

Keep in mind that you don't have to use 100% of the material in Harnworld in order to enjoy it. When I first started using Harn (almost 20 years ago now, holy crap!), I think I used the map (which, by the way, is beautiful) and maybe 10% of the written material. The rest I ignored, because I didn't really need it for my game (high-fantasy 1st ed. AD&D) and because I hadn't had time to absorb it. So, don't feel that Harn is necessarily some huge commitment that's going to force you to radically change the way you play. There's tons of material that you can take or leave, or use as you see fit: there's plenty of inspiration, but what you do with it is up to you.

One thing I really enjoy is the Harn community. Yes, there are some vocal "hardcore" fans who can be initimidating, but by and large people are really open-minded. There are some very talented people creating free Harn-related material (much of which, incidentally, you can use whether you own Harn or not); Patrick's website (http://www.swordsandshields.org) is one that I highly recommend. Personally, I'm lucky enough to be involved with a group that's creating electronic Harn products, including stuff based on Profantasy's Campaign Cartographer 2 software. Our website is at http://www.thechmp.com if you're interested.

A quick word about HarnMaster (the rules). Personally, I love them. Yes, they fall into the "gritty" category, but that's fine for me and the people I play with. If you're not happy with your current rules, or if you want to try something different, I'd really encourage you to check out HarnMaster.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and good gaming.

Keith

 

[Henry]

...WotC and Ryan Dancey have advertised d20 as being a universal system. Therefore, KK is perfectly justified when he says that he doesn't think it handles realistic combat well.

Quote from RYan Dancey at Gamingreport.com - the thread was "Old School vs. new school" under Dancey's message boards:

I agree that d20 isn't a universal system. It was never meant to be a universal system, and no amount of changes will make it a universal system.

It was, however, designed with an eye towards expanding greatly the range of products that can be sold to the largest player network in the RPG business. The goal was not to produce something elegant from a design perspective (though there is a lot of elegance in d20), but to produce something that could give us a better platform to sell products to players.

 

[Psion]

Harn is very much a fantasy setting and it's well-suited to those who want to run a "fantasy" game. That said, Harn is more consistent than many other fantasy settings that I've seen. By that, I simply mean that things in Harn make sense: its cultures, its history, the settlement patterns of its inhabitants, etc.

Kalamar fans make the same claims about Kalamar, but Kalamar is ready-to-run in D&D.

A quick word about HarnMaster (the rules). Personally, I love them.

To each their own. I have Harnmaster, I like some aspects of it (like the damage system), but I don't like chargen and task resolution.

 

[Tiefling]

Maybe not a true universal system ala GURPS, but it seems to me that they've been making an effort to get it to handle as wide a range as possible. And since it was originally designed for the fantasy genre, it doesn't seem to unrealistic to ask it to do low-fantasy.

 

[Henry]

I read the Harn preview by Kaptain K. Kaptain, it doesn't sound like it's my cup of tea, but thank you for the info. It's good to know if I need a bluntly-realistic setting that there is one available.