Discussion: Selling Stuff to PCs

[Phoenix8008]

As far as trading items between PC's on an adventure goes, I'm fine with it. Heck, even trading items of equal level between PC's back in town wouldn't bother me.

But PC's selling to other PC's breaks the monetary system and shouldn't be allowed unless it is following the PHB rules for selling to a vendor: Seller gets 1/5 value and buyer pays full value.

I don't care if it makes sense and I'm not worried about the fluff, that's just the rules of the universe. (Although I do like Only The Strong's ideas for fluffing it up.) I know it's not pretty or nice, but I don't see a way to do it without causing problems down the road. I'd love for PC's selling to PC's to be possible as it would add more realism and 'living world'ness to the game. But I don't see an easy way to make it happen that doesn't cause more problems later.

 

[renau1g]

I still think allowing PC to PC trading will open up possibilities that will hurt the game. Perhaps a few times per year one or more of the judges can instead run a "Bazaar" adventure, with unlimited number of participants, to allow supervised trading under guidelines to be discussed. This might allow minor changes (I just learned to use a mordenkrad, so I trade my +2 flaming warhammer for a +2 flaming mordenkrad) (the GM dropped a magical staff for me, but I'm an orb wizard; I trade it for an orb of the same power level) even without another player to trade with, but with a GM available to veto anything seen as abusive. Alternately, we can just leave things as they are and trust that if you sell off the stuff you don't find very useful (at 1/5) and post the desired replacements in your wish list for the next adventure, that something close to your desires will turn up.

You can take advantage of the transfer enchantment rituals. There are already many mechanisms in the game rules as written that allow for players to get rid of items they no longer want (sell for 1/5 value), buy items they do want (purchase at PHB/whatever book price), create their own magic items, transfer enchantments to other weapons/implements, etc...

 

[stonegod]

In LEB, the parcel system would help judge this. If you give an item to a lower level character, that would count as an equivalent parcel (either an available item parcel or the closest gold parcel in amount); any gold the seller receives is part of the next gold parcel they should receive (so they should get less later). In theory, the buyer could pay whatever they want to the seller, but the seller would still be w/in the LEB economy expectations.

Of course, this still places some artificial limitations (you can only receive that which you have an available parcel for; you cannot sell more than you next parcel (usually of this level) is worth).

 

[Kalidrev]

I also don't have any problem with item TRADING. If I have an item I don't like, but another guy does have what I like, and he doesn't want it, and the items are of equal level, or you are willing to trade for an equivalent value (lvl 2 item being traded for a lvl 1 item + gold to make up the difference), I'm all for it. The only thing I don't want to see is SOME characters getting more bang for their buck in comparison to others.

In other words... TRADING (of equal/equivalent items/value): YES; SELLING to other PCs: NO

 

[ryryguy]

I wonder, would it be okay for PCs of the same level to trade freely, even different-leveled items? That seems to be close to the situation that's the default assumption of the economy, a party of same-level PCs.

I guess if those same level PCs swap, say, a level 2 item for a level 5 item, the PC getting the level 5 item ends up a bit ahead of the curve, the PC getting the level 2 item is a bit behind. But "conservation of parcels" is still preserved, and when future treasure is awarded, DMs will take each PC's current treasure into account and give more or less appropriately. They should be doing that already anyway - by the parcel system, given two PCs who just reached level 2, you could already have one with L2 item, one with L5 item without any swapping.

 

[renau1g]

I'm still very leery about trading unequal items as then we have to ensure that both PC's are indeed the same level at the same time, etc, etc. Also, if a player decides, ah man I'm going to retire PC X, but before I go Bob the Wizard I'd like to give you my +2 neck stuff for your potion of healing. Then the player goes and retires his PC and using retirement rules doesn't loose that item, but rather there's really no "cost" to the trade.

 

[Kalidrev]

Speaking of the parcel system, I was curious about something... Let's say I have a level 4 character who has used up his lvl+1, lvl+2, lvl+3 parcels and then levels up to level 5. He now has the option to gain either the gold parcel (840 gp) or a level 8 item (lvl+4 parcel). What if that character wants a lvl 5, 6, or 7 item? Am I restricted to either taking the 840 gp or lvl 8 item, or can he take the lower level item? If he can and DOES take the lower level item, is he short-changed the difference between the lvl 8 item and the lower level item he receives, or should that character also get some gold to make up the difference?

 

[ryryguy]

Good points, renau1g... I guess I wasn't thinking about effect on the judges, or people trying to "game" the system.

elec has described what seems like a legitimate concern - a PC who ends up with an item that isn't useful and he doesn't want, perhaps because of a change in direction of the character, failure to understand the character's capabilities, and/or a vague or non-existent wishlist. How can that PC get a more useful item without selling/disenchanting and losing so much value? PC-to-PC free market is not a good solution though, for all the reasons discussed.

So how about this. During the leveling up process, the PC can change one item to any other item of the same level, automatically and for free. It'd be kind of like retraining, but for items. Since it occurs during leveling up it can be noted in the "Changes" section, and it doesn't involve another PC, so it should be easy for judges to stay on top of.

For fluff, it could be assumed that PCs spend some of their "time off" searching bazaars and markets looking to make a swap with a merchant or other adventurer. That won't always make sense if you level up mid-adventure, but you could try to come up with something else appropriate. Especially if you're not changing item slot, maybe someone in the party did a quick ritual to alter the enchantment. (Anyway, I wouldn't let occasional problems with fluff interfere with a good, balanced solution if it comes down to it... just look away and pretend not to notice if you have to. )

 

[elecgraystone]

I wasn't refering to "trading" items. I was refering to selling them to anothe PC. I know some are talking about trading, I was still on the "Selling items to PC's" topic.

Yep, and I was on trade this whole time. I did point that out in my posts

And how does selling it back for 1/5th the price make a drop in wealth? You had to spend the money in the first place. That's like buying a truck and getting pissed that you didin't get all your money back for it.

I have a sword worth 1000gp. I sell it for 200. I lost 800 total wealth.

Another way to look at it is this. When the GM adds up how much I have to figure out what I can get as a reward, the 'me' with the sword comes out 800gp more wealthy than the 'me' with money. The GM doesn't figure out the sell price on my items when they do that.

 

[renau1g]

But it's hard to hit the enemy with 200 gold coins for 1d8 damage