Disdain for new fantasy

[Cadfan]

Sigh. I still think that this is less a stupid name issue, than a translation awkwardness issue.

Japanese has different grammatical structure than english, and different norms about phrasing and the acceptability of appending multiple adjectives.

I understand why people laugh, but its not really an intrinsic part of anime anymore than lips not matching mouths is an intrinsic part of movies filmed in Tokyo.

 

[Mallus]

Disclaimer One: I like anime.

Disclaimer Two: I am pretty old (38).

Disclaimer Three: I didn't get into anime until my late teens, which was also when I began playing D&D (aside from shows like Speed Racer and Star Blazers, which were readily available on US TV when I was an actual child).

The thing that really baffles me about this whole discussion is that I've always found D&D and anime to be strikingly similar. Kinda like long-lost, virtually identical cousins (queue the Patty Duke Show theme...).

Both genres, and I use this term loosely, usually feature over-the-top heroic action, general silliness, a mishmash blend of different fantasy (and SF) sub-genres, wild shifts in tone, with most anime I've seen going from brutal to maudlin to slapstick over the course of a single episode, and most D&D campaigns I've participated in occupying the unlikely middle ground between Tolkien, Howard, Monty Python, the Three Stooges and a Tom Clancy novel, both have long serial storylines that don't make a lick of sense, and include the ever-popular violence of truly comic book proportions which leads to the protagonists gaining superhuman power.

If D&D resembles anything other than itself, it's anime (well, the shonen stuff, at any rate).

And while I can understand not liking the particular aesthetics found in anime, but how coudl you possibly bring that into a D&D game? Do you know anyone who can actually do a face fault IRL? Or screech like an anime schoolgirl?

 

[ThirdWizard]

<snip>

It's funny because its true!

 

[kibbitz]

I can understand people not liking certain elements commonly associated with anime in their game. I can understand that it may get them unhappy and result in them expressing their distaste of anime. However, the way it comes over is depressing (well, not that much, but I'm not sure what else to use. Annoying?)

Instead of the expected "nah, it's not my cup of tea", it usually seems more like "ugh, take your anime and get out of our sight". What just makes this even more depressing is some of it isn't even accurate, IMO. I don't remember much specific, but for one, there was a recent thread concerning art in D&D products. There was some art brought up which got tagged by some people as anime horsecrud. I disliked those pieces as well. Now I love collecting anime/video game artwork (wallpapers, promotional pics, etc), so while I don't claim to be an authority, I'd assume that it'd be reasonable enough that I would like said anime horsecrud since it's anime. Well, it's horsecrud alright (IMO), but it isn't anime (again, IMO). Go figure...

Sigh. Really, all I'd just want is for some tolerance, or possibly just indifference. But I suppose that is quite an impossible request, even on Enworld...

 

[jasin]

Nice, Mallus.

 

[mmadsen]

If you ever watch Science Ninja Team Gatchaman and compare it to the American showings of 'Battle of the Planets' or 'G Force' you'll think you're watching two utterly seperate shows and in a sense you'd be correct.

Three separate shows. The two US shows were, remarkably, totally different from one another.

By the way, I just about died when I first learned the original (translated) Japanese name of the show. "Science Ninja Team" is awesomely funny -- but then you add "Gatchaman" at the end? I couldn't make that up...

 

[blargney the second]

Spot on, Mallus.

 

[Eric Tolle]

"Anime" is simply a more derogatory replacement for the term "cinematic", which thought he meaning is vague, seems to boil down to "characters are running around and doing stuff all wild like, not spending two hours planning how to take down a kobold like in the good old days." Running and jumping to get at the monsters is "anime/cinematic". Slowly and methodically clearing out an underground complex with the tactical caution of a special forces team is "old school".

As far as escalation goes, I realized things had gone too far when I talked to the guy who's character was personal friends with Thor, had a crapload of magical artifacts, and who had survived a point-blank nuclear explosion...because he had made his saving throw. It was all very "anime" and a perfect illustration of the problems with later editions of the game, except well, this was back in 1983, with 1st. edition AD&D, and nobody in the area had even heard of anime.

So I can't really take complaints about escalation of power too seriously. It's always been a silly game.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Cyborg 009 and Shotaro Ishinomori are holding on line one; they'd like a word with you....from 1963.

No color coded teamates, no distinct transmormations into a more powerful costumed mode, etc. Undoubtably Cyborg 009 is major predecesor to sentai, but I am pretty sure Gatchaman was the first place all the modern elements first came together.

It is kinda like how Tetsujin28 is technically the first giant robot, but it didn't really start until Mazinger Z first put a pilot into the giant robot that the modern Super Robot genre got started. Or how it wasn't until Mobile Suit Gundam put a giant robot into a military framework as a replacement for tanks and fighter jets that the Real Robot genre got started.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Well, this thread went other places, but I still feel a small need to address this, as design principles are an important consideration:

WoW: In many gamers' minds, WoW represents the epitome of what D&D must not become: a mindless hack n' slash computer game.

You should try playing the game before you make these kind of comments. The current crop of dungeons are actually more tactically interesting than most D&D adventures I've seen for a while. Despite some holes, the fluffy bits are about on a par for writing with the average d20 stuff.

WoW isn't any more monolithic than anime. I think there are a lot of WoW naysayers that don't realize that it offers more variety of gameplay experience than just the monster grind. The high level raids and PvP are seriously interesting games - it's just unfortunate that you have to slog through a lot of repetitive tasks to get to the good stuff.

Bingo.

*sad laugh*
It's really too bad that they hide the best parts of the game behind days and days of lackluster gameplay. I had to quit from sheer boredom around level 45.

Interesting thing about WoW that is VERY relevant to tabletop game design... The designers had NO idea what they were doing initially. But they have learned FAST. Each new content patch puts in some very impressive refinements, and the dungeons past level 60 get better and better. There are more interesting tactical elements. More classes can contribute meaningfully in more situations. Even the grinding elements have acquired meaningful and exciting rewards

The point of all this..... WoW designers are advancing their craft. Rapidly. Alas that they are not applying this experience to refining the mid-level content When they start from scratch with WoW 2 or some other IP, it's going to be a far more interesting experience all-around. So, if people think it's stealing players from D&D now..... you ain't seen nothing yet.

Solution: The D&D game needs to be allowed to change and become a better, more accessible game. WoW has the "getting better" part down, and with their next reboot I bet the accessibility part will improve, too. D&D designers, however, are shackled by their audience (i.e. something like 60% of this board) in ways that prevent real advancement in gameplay. The more threads I read about 4e, the more obvious this becomes. Lots of people who they need to count on for sales are dead set against any meaningful form of change.