Disdain for new fantasy

[TwinBahamut]

I've been playing since about 1978 and I'm glad a few posters have explained what anime was, since I'm not sure I ever had a name for the freaky cartoon kids with spiky hair carrying spiked chains jumping over trees on late night tv for a millisecond before I flip the channel. I thought I'd try to use an analogy and an understanding of the history of wargaming/fantasy gaming to illustrate the lack of appeal of anime to many grognards.

Spiked chains now... give me a break... Spiked chains are a D&Dism. They don't exist anywhere else, and certainly not in anime. Anime has cool hsitorical weapons like the Kusari-gama, they don't need spiked chains.

I don't think that I want to respond to the rest of your post. All I can say is that you are bringing all kinds of things into this discussion that are not related to D&D, fantasy, or anime.

 

[Nifft]

I don't think that I want to respond to the rest of your post.

Even if given nothing but the poster's chosen screen name, I'd say that might be a wise choice.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Campbell]

Silly me. I never realized that thai boxing, kendo, and judo were western martial arts.

 

[Darth Shoju]

Consider the history of ultimate fighting for example, where alleged kung fu practioners have basically never won a match against representatives of "real" disciplines

I've seen a few fights by Gung-fu practitioners against more traditional MMA fighters and the results have been mixed: some do well, some don't. There aren't a lot of fighters who use it as a basis so I'd say it is hard to really say how well it applies to MMA.

Much like how boxing and UFC-type fighting (greek pancration) grew out of efforts to train for or practice REAL fighting in a simulated environment...

I was under the impression that the UFC started so the Gracies could show how Gracie BJJ could allow a person with a modest physique (Royce, one of the smaller Gracies) to defeat larger opponents. Considering BJJ was developed from Judo and Jiu-jitsu -- both Japanese martial-arts -- I'd say that eastern disciplines are hardly useless. Further, Dana White calls Bruce Lee the father of modern MMA, and many consider his knowledge of Wing Chun Gung Fu to be the basis of his solid stance and balance. While Gung-fu may have become glamorized and exaggerated in its effectiveness, its origins are likely in the forms practiced by soldiers and at its heart can be very practical.

It just seems silly to me to be so dismissive of any martial-art when modern hand-to-hand combat has evolved to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

However, ignoring the more derogatory aspects of your post, I can see your point and perhaps agree to a degree (considering I am a fan of both anime and MMA and tend to lean away from anime-style action in my D&D).

 

[WizarDru]

No color coded teamates, no distinct transmormations into a more powerful costumed mode, etc. Undoubtably Cyborg 009 is major predecesor to sentai, but I am pretty sure Gatchaman was the first place all the modern elements first came together.

Good point. It's a liner progression. Cyborg 009 was the first team superhero show. Kamen Rider set the world on fire in 1971, and Gatchaman took that ball and ran with it in 1972, directly influenced by KR. Goranger, the first Super Sentai show, was directly influenced by Gatchman when it came out in 1975. Gatchman, in turn, reflected some of that when IT returned in 1978....which ironically was the same year that the second Cyborg 009 series came out. The worm eats it's tail, I tell you!

Say, did you know that a feature film version is due in 2008? Interesting.

 

[mmadsen]

Considering BJJ was developed from Judo and Jiu-jitsu -- both Japanese martial-arts -- I'd say that eastern disciplines are hardly useless.

I don't know if I really want to add to this tangent, but...

Jigaro Kano developed judo from the many disparate styles of jujutsu by applying a modern, western, empirical philosophy to what had been traditional arts. That is, he took out the "dangerous" moves that couldn't be practiced, and he created an art much more like western wrestling, in that it could and would be trained full-speed against a resisting opponent. This emphasis on live sparring, or randori, was a clear break with tradition, and it's what led to judo "wiping the mat" with the other styles in the late 1800s.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu kept that emphasis on live sparring but considered its roots still grounded in the combative mission of traditional jujutsu; it was about winning a fight, not "mutual welfare and benefit" (the stated goal of judo).

 

[GreatLemur]

I don't know the name of the show- I was channel surfing- but on one of the networks that shows anime (Sci-Fi, Cartoon Network, G4, whatever), there was a show in which mixed-gender teams were competing against each other in some kind of downhill race on a wierdo rollercoaster.

Not a girl on the show had a bra size under "Beachball."

Er... I think he meant "Point out the excessive breasts in D&D 4E's art", not "Point out the excessive breasts in anime." No one on earth could be so foolish as to claim that there aren't any anime shows with great big retarded milksacks. Not even people who type "u" instead of "you".

 

[GreatLemur]

To someone who understands that D&D is a bastard lighthearted vision of 'real' fighting from cultures that knew how to fight, Anime appears to be utter whimsy.

Ha ha. Oh, wow. "I don't like Asian influences in D&D because Asian cultures don't know how to fight." Diplomacy check: FAILED.

 

[Henry]

First of all, ladies and gents, let's please tone down the rhetoric and try to respect opinions. Over exaggerating isn't going to help anyone.

Second, I have to take issue, trollwad, with calling Asian combat forms "ineffective." Both Asian, Western, and other forms are pretty darned effective, especially against the opponents in their respective areas. If you accept the original western influences in D&D as "bastardized" versions of a real form, why not that Wuxia and other anime conventions are "fantastic" versions of a real form, too? I'm no combatant, but I know enough of practitioners to know that masters of any martial art are more than capable of putting an opponent down when needed.

It's fine to dislike the style elements, but I can't accept that they stem from some difference of "real" vs. "play."

 

[kibbitz]

Good point. It's a liner progression. Cyborg 009 was the first team superhero show. Kamen Rider set the world on fire in 1971, and Gatchaman took that ball and ran with it in 1972, directly influenced by KR. Goranger, the first Super Sentai show, was directly influenced by Gatchman when it came out in 1975. Gatchman, in turn, reflected some of that when IT returned in 1978....which ironically was the same year that the second Cyborg 009 series came out. The worm eats it's tail, I tell you!

Say, did you know that a feature film version is due in 2008? Interesting.

Wait a minute... you mean a feature film version of Gatchaman or Cyborg 009? Though honestly, if this is true, regardless of whichever the actual one is, I would really like to watch them. Though speaking of Sentai and Gatchaman, Choujin Sentai Jetman is very reminiscent of Gatchaman. Possibly some sort of homage? I'd comment further but I'm not sure how to do the spoiler tag bits...