Disdain for new fantasy

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that *I* believe WoW is mindless hack 'n slash (I haven't played it, as you mentioned). I stated that "in many gamers' minds", it is thus. Which I think is a fair statement (albeit rather vague).

Fair enough.

It's an idiotic stereotype. But the 4e threads seem to engender that sort of thing.

 

[Darth Shoju]

From the bit Ive seen of anime and a fair amount of kung fu movies in my youth...

Are you basing your judgement of the effectiveness of Kung-fu from watching movies and anime? Isn't that like judging the merits of boxing by watching Rocky?

...the characters don't throw someone to the ground and break their arm (judo, jiujitsu)...

Here's a quote from Bob Wall on a recounting of Bruce Lee fighting an extra on set that was aggressively challenging his martial-arts skills:

"This kid was good. He was no punk. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart."

"I mean Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...Then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass into the wall and swept him, he proceeded to drop his knee into his opponent's chest,locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly."

(emphasis mine)

While some anime may not portray combat realistically, I don't think that speaks much to the effectiveness of Kung-fu.

Someone else posted something to the effect of them seeing kung fu fighters win some, lose some -- this is patently absurd. Look at the record of the UFC, which is certainly NOT real combat (it has some rules, referees, etc), but its as close to combat as I know and we've seen perhaps a thousand individual matches so there is a ton of data. To the best of my knowledge, no karate or kung fu practicioner ever beat anyone who was not a karate or kung fu practioner. Virtually all of the early matches were won by grappling/submission types and lately boxer/thai boxers who can wrestle defensively have done well also.

That would be me, and I said that there are very few MMA fighters that use Kung-fu as a basis (for whatever reason -- I'm not claiming it is the ultimate martial-art or anything). However, from some of the (real) fight videos I've seen, Kung-fu practitioners do seem to be hit-and miss: some win, some lose, some lose badly (again, I hardly see this as me claiming it to be the perfect art or anything).

As for karate practitioners in MMA, I can think of two that have beaten traditional MMA fighters: Georges St. Pierre (he started as a Kyokushin karate fighter) and Ryoto Machida.

Again, I'd like to stress that I don't consider any martial-art superior; rather, I think they should be examined practically and used for what works. I'd also like to apologize for further derailing this thread.

 

[Hairfoot]

It's not really accurate to compare refereed, rule-based UFC with a theoretical kung-fu fight (or krav magar et al), because gouging eyes, punching throats, and biting are prohibited in the ring. Horses for courses.

Personally, I come down heavily on the side of boxing/wrestling/MMA over kung-fu, but there's no way of finding out for sure without having an all-in grand tournament on an arch-tyrant's deserted island somewhere in international waters. Like this bloke: www.theonion.com/content/node/30496

In any event, the axiom is true: when a good big guy fights a good little guy, the big guy always wins.

What? ENworld? I thought I was at Sherdog!

 

[hong]

I am "embracing" my "warrior culture ideal" RIGHT NOW, IYKTIMAIYTD.

 

[Darth Shoju]

I am "embracing" my "warrior culture ideal" RIGHT NOW, IYKTIMAIYTD.

Just as long as you keep your "Dim Mak" to yourself it's all good.

 

[Hussar]

So far, we've been talking about anime in D&D in pretty general terms. But, the problem is when you start looking at specific instances, the anime comparisons fall all to pieces with even the most cursory of investigation.

Take the whole "3e art looks like anime" bit. It's now moving into 4e already. Yet, despite repeated calls, not one single person has been able to produce a single WOTC pic in a D&D book that looks remotely "anime". Not once. Ever. I've seen thread after thread whinging about 3e art and comparing it to anime, but, whenever someone asks for concrete examples, everyone shuffles their feet and hems and haws.

For another example, look at the Pokemount. Comparing the paladin's mount to Pokemon to show how bad the mechanics are. It doesn't really work though since a paladin's mount and a Pokemon share no real points of comparison other than they can both be summoned. A Pokemon is a small magical animal that pops out to fight with magical energy attacks on behalf of its summoner. A paladin's mount is a large creature that rarely fights and is mostly only there as background fluff.

A better comparison is a Baq of Tricks. That's pretty much Pokemon to a "T". Only problem is, it predates Pokemon by a couple of decades. Pretty hard to say that it's inspired by anime. A druid's summoning ability is far closer to Pokemon than a Paladin's mount, yet, we rarely see thread after thread whining about how the Pokedruid is ruining the game. Of course, it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that a nature based character summoning nature spirits to defend the land is pretty solidly entrenched in Western fantasy as well. Sure, a Druid's summoning can be compared to Pokemon, but, it can also be equally compared to a host of myth and fantasy as well.

When you boil it down, anime comparisons are simply an alpha geek's way of trying to tell people that his fantasy is better than yours.

 

[blargney the second]

Don't druids get anime companions?

 

[Hussar]

Don't druids get anime companions?

I know this was tongue in cheek (or I think it was) but, I think you really hit the nail on the head Blargney. The idea of the character wandering around with some sort of pet does appear in a lot of anime.

Then again, it appears in all sorts of forms that predate anime as well. Is an animal companion anime inspired or Beastmaster? Or myth based as in The Wild Hunt?

People will tend to pick the inspiration that makes their point most of the time. If a gamer doesn't like animal companions, he'll likely point to anime. If he does like it, he'll point to myth and legend.

Me, I look at all the fantasy novels I've read for decades and figure that there's loads of inspiration for an animal companion that anime doesn't play a whole lot into it. YMMV obviously.

 

[Merlion]

Can anyone explain why if anything is derived from anime/WoW (even if it has a non-existent connection) it seems like there is opposition not based on the concept itself but from where it comes from?

You might want to inject a little context here. I assume what you are talking about is things incorporated into D&D that seem to have an influence from WOW or Anime, but your post does not make that clear.


Mostly it has to do with the fact that people tend to see D&D as its own genre, and don't want it changed by outside influences. They tend to see those particular influences as being especially oposed to the nature of the D&D genre, at least as they see it.

And of course, in some cases its pure snobbery, especially as far as the Anime part. Many people arent aware of anime as anything beyond Dragon Ball Z. And as far as WoW, many understand that WOW and other MMOs are not really role playing games in any sense of the word, and are afraid that its influence will tend to lessen the roleplay aspects of D&D. I can understand this and even feel that way myself about some things, but some take it to extremes.

Now I have a couple of questions. Why are you directly associating World of Warcraft and Anime? The two have basically nothing to do with each other, aside from the fact that WOW Elves look a good bit like the elves in some anime.

Next, you do realize that much of anime is not "new" fantasy right?

 

[Merlion]

WoW: In many gamers' minds, WoW represents the epitome of what D&D must not become: a mindless hack n' slash computer game.

anime: Have you seen the kind of people that are huge into anime? Scary . . .

Um....you DO realize that a lot of people who play RPGS are "huge into anime", right?

I happen to be one of them.

And you do realize that anyone can have an unhealthy obessesion with anything right? And that most people make similar ill informed and somewhat offensive statements to yours above about people who play D&D.