Disdain for new fantasy
- Thread starter AllisterH
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Anime, Degrees of Freedom, Warrior Culture Legacy
Another poster commented that I was off topic. Judge for yourself, but I don't think so. I believe the topic is something like why do grognards have a bias against anime?
First, I point out that anime has many degrees of freedom (a lot of creative license) around an art form (kung fu) that was not realistic (in the sense of actually being useful in a fight).
Second, I point out that many other martial arts and wargaming have less creative license around real fighting or war and I noted how much the Prussian general staff loved to war game.
Third, I point out that D&D clearly grew out of wargaming. Note Gygax has designed a number of war games apart from D&D and is clearly fairly knowledgeable about the history of real warfare. The original d&d was an effort to import fantasy archetypes from a warrior western culture into traditional war gaming. Perhaps a stereotypical grognard understands that at a psychological level even if he doesn't remember the facts. This may explain why he is opposed to anime rather than mere accusations of "prejudice."
Fourth, I point out that D&D is clearly not realistic (with dragons and magic etc), but a grognard often revels in the mythological outgrowth of a western warrior culture (tolkien knew horrible real war, the ring saga and beowulf are outgrowths of germanic culture that reveled in war, howard grew up in small town great depression oil boom and bust texas reading classic pulp archetypes) that is utterly apart from anime. This grognard may shake his head at the very elements of modern d&d that are like anime - i.e. how many times have you heard grognards complain that it is too hard to die in 3.5 as opposed to old d&d? This doesn't mean that 3.5e is bad (I play it as well as older forms) but it is an effort to analyze why different generations of gamers feel what they do when they look at a game. Why did Gygax name his primary character Mordenkainen instead of some anime name? Thats because the name is obviously Finnish (ask Gygax), and Gygax knows his fantasy; the Finns preserved their western cultural warrior legacy in the Kalevala as well as anyone in the West. Tolkein obviously drew on this western warrior legacy as well.
Thus, I believe that many grognards will often (but certainly not always) look at anime and shake their heads much like a gracie or a serious wrestler will look at kung fu and shake his head and chuckle. It simply is alien to the warrior culture ideal that you read in Beowulf and the Kalevala and it has too many degrees of freedom even in the aerial kung fu that it purports to represent to be interesting to some. Note I am NOT trying to put down anime (watch whatever you enjoy, why would anyone's viewing preferences matter to me!). I am just trying to verbalize why at the subconscious level anime may seem offputting or silly to grognards (this is the topic of the thread after all) without simply using the easy politically correct phrases that westerners often use like "trope" or "prejudice" to avoid actually analyzing things.
One military scholar referred to war as the continuation of culture. I consider games to be a continuation of culture and they are often a "practice" or more often a lighter-hearted "release" of aggressive impulses - whether an intentional preparation for such like the Prussian General Staff or something as simple as releasing aggressive impulses in a closely controlled environment (Bob in the KODT comics slicing up orcs or charging a swack iron dragon with his hackmaster +5).
Henry the moderator, please reread my original post, I absolutely never called ALL ASIAN Martial Arts ineffective - far from it, since I've spent years in Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu. I called the martial arts from which anime seems to spring (aerial kung fu I guess) ineffective. From the bit Ive seen of anime and a fair amount of kung fu movies in my youth, the characters don't throw someone to the ground and break their arm (judo, jiujitsu), they leap hundreds of feet in their air and spring around in battle with androgynous foes and wield weapons that look nothing like real versions of the practical but painful-looking sticks and rubber knives I've seen practicioners of filipino martial arts use. Again, Henry please note that in my original post, I put Judo, Jiujitsu, Kendo in the category of more realistic martial arts with the western martial arts (wrestling, boxing, pancration) and if I was being more detailed, I'd put Escrima, pencak silat and other se asian forms in there as well. These martial arts are various degrees of refinement for warrior cultures (I mean my god the samurai are the archetypal warrior aristocrats and they refined kendo and jiujitsu and their imperial japanese progeny later codified a more practiceable form of jiujitsu into judo).
1950s japanese filmmaking produced Kurasawa and the Seven Samurai. Modern Japan by contrast is possibly the most pacifistic society on earth (this isn't to denigrate it since I generally love Japan and have visited numerous times). It should be no surprise that a culture that is 70 years removed from real conflict with a constitution that bans war and whose last war ended in an epic disaster is starting to tend towards art forms (anime) that are utterly unrelated to real fighting. War (and art) are cultural expressions based on what people know. Most Japanese (who I guess produce most of the anime) don't know war anymore -- though there are exceptions and some of the combative sports (judo and PRIDE/SHOOTO) are still quite popular. Seriously, I challenge anyone on this list to watch Kurasawa and anime back to back and not get an inkling of my point of the cultural difference between 1950s or 1960s Japan (people with a live memory of a proud warrior culture) and 2007 Japan (people who haven't known war in 70 years). A grognard can watch Kurasawa - it isn't simple cultural "bias" against Asia.
Someone else posted something to the effect of them seeing kung fu fighters win some, lose some -- this is patently absurd. Look at the record of the UFC, which is certainly NOT real combat (it has some rules, referees, etc), but its as close to combat as I know and we've seen perhaps a thousand individual matches so there is a ton of data. To the best of my knowledge, no karate or kung fu practicioner ever beat anyone who was not a karate or kung fu practioner. Virtually all of the early matches were won by grappling/submission types and lately boxer/thai boxers who can wrestle defensively have done well also.
Another poster commented that I was off topic. Judge for yourself, but I don't think so. I believe the topic is something like why do grognards have a bias against anime?
First, I point out that anime has many degrees of freedom (a lot of creative license) around an art form (kung fu) that was not realistic (in the sense of actually being useful in a fight).
Second, I point out that many other martial arts and wargaming have less creative license around real fighting or war and I noted how much the Prussian general staff loved to war game.
Third, I point out that D&D clearly grew out of wargaming. Note Gygax has designed a number of war games apart from D&D and is clearly fairly knowledgeable about the history of real warfare. The original d&d was an effort to import fantasy archetypes from a warrior western culture into traditional war gaming. Perhaps a stereotypical grognard understands that at a psychological level even if he doesn't remember the facts. This may explain why he is opposed to anime rather than mere accusations of "prejudice."
Fourth, I point out that D&D is clearly not realistic (with dragons and magic etc), but a grognard often revels in the mythological outgrowth of a western warrior culture (tolkien knew horrible real war, the ring saga and beowulf are outgrowths of germanic culture that reveled in war, howard grew up in small town great depression oil boom and bust texas reading classic pulp archetypes) that is utterly apart from anime. This grognard may shake his head at the very elements of modern d&d that are like anime - i.e. how many times have you heard grognards complain that it is too hard to die in 3.5 as opposed to old d&d? This doesn't mean that 3.5e is bad (I play it as well as older forms) but it is an effort to analyze why different generations of gamers feel what they do when they look at a game. Why did Gygax name his primary character Mordenkainen instead of some anime name? Thats because the name is obviously Finnish (ask Gygax), and Gygax knows his fantasy; the Finns preserved their western cultural warrior legacy in the Kalevala as well as anyone in the West. Tolkein obviously drew on this western warrior legacy as well.
Thus, I believe that many grognards will often (but certainly not always) look at anime and shake their heads much like a gracie or a serious wrestler will look at kung fu and shake his head and chuckle. It simply is alien to the warrior culture ideal that you read in Beowulf and the Kalevala and it has too many degrees of freedom even in the aerial kung fu that it purports to represent to be interesting to some. Note I am NOT trying to put down anime (watch whatever you enjoy, why would anyone's viewing preferences matter to me!). I am just trying to verbalize why at the subconscious level anime may seem offputting or silly to grognards (this is the topic of the thread after all) without simply using the easy politically correct phrases that westerners often use like "trope" or "prejudice" to avoid actually analyzing things.
One military scholar referred to war as the continuation of culture. I consider games to be a continuation of culture and they are often a "practice" or more often a lighter-hearted "release" of aggressive impulses - whether an intentional preparation for such like the Prussian General Staff or something as simple as releasing aggressive impulses in a closely controlled environment (Bob in the KODT comics slicing up orcs or charging a swack iron dragon with his hackmaster +5).
Henry the moderator, please reread my original post, I absolutely never called ALL ASIAN Martial Arts ineffective - far from it, since I've spent years in Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu. I called the martial arts from which anime seems to spring (aerial kung fu I guess) ineffective. From the bit Ive seen of anime and a fair amount of kung fu movies in my youth, the characters don't throw someone to the ground and break their arm (judo, jiujitsu), they leap hundreds of feet in their air and spring around in battle with androgynous foes and wield weapons that look nothing like real versions of the practical but painful-looking sticks and rubber knives I've seen practicioners of filipino martial arts use. Again, Henry please note that in my original post, I put Judo, Jiujitsu, Kendo in the category of more realistic martial arts with the western martial arts (wrestling, boxing, pancration) and if I was being more detailed, I'd put Escrima, pencak silat and other se asian forms in there as well. These martial arts are various degrees of refinement for warrior cultures (I mean my god the samurai are the archetypal warrior aristocrats and they refined kendo and jiujitsu and their imperial japanese progeny later codified a more practiceable form of jiujitsu into judo).
1950s japanese filmmaking produced Kurasawa and the Seven Samurai. Modern Japan by contrast is possibly the most pacifistic society on earth (this isn't to denigrate it since I generally love Japan and have visited numerous times). It should be no surprise that a culture that is 70 years removed from real conflict with a constitution that bans war and whose last war ended in an epic disaster is starting to tend towards art forms (anime) that are utterly unrelated to real fighting. War (and art) are cultural expressions based on what people know. Most Japanese (who I guess produce most of the anime) don't know war anymore -- though there are exceptions and some of the combative sports (judo and PRIDE/SHOOTO) are still quite popular. Seriously, I challenge anyone on this list to watch Kurasawa and anime back to back and not get an inkling of my point of the cultural difference between 1950s or 1960s Japan (people with a live memory of a proud warrior culture) and 2007 Japan (people who haven't known war in 70 years). A grognard can watch Kurasawa - it isn't simple cultural "bias" against Asia.
Someone else posted something to the effect of them seeing kung fu fighters win some, lose some -- this is patently absurd. Look at the record of the UFC, which is certainly NOT real combat (it has some rules, referees, etc), but its as close to combat as I know and we've seen perhaps a thousand individual matches so there is a ton of data. To the best of my knowledge, no karate or kung fu practicioner ever beat anyone who was not a karate or kung fu practioner. Virtually all of the early matches were won by grappling/submission types and lately boxer/thai boxers who can wrestle defensively have done well also.
TwinBahamut
First Post
Your argument completely breaks down, right here in the beginning. You make two major implicit claims here, which are both essential to your argument as a whole (at least, from what I can follow of your argument. I admit that I can't seem to follow it clearly). These claims are that all anime is based on fighting, and that the martial art form that they use in anime is kung fu. Both claims are completely false.trollwad said:
I don't even see why you are making the claim based on kung fu at all. Kung fu is a Chinese (or at least general mainland Asian) set of martial art forms, and anime is exclusively Japanese in origin. Obviously enough, Japanese anime is as much influenced by its own native forms (Kendo, Kenjutsu, Japaense-style archery, Ninjutsu, Aikido, Karate, etc) as it is by other forms like Kung fu, and thus your argument associating it primarily with Kung fu is flawed.
Your claim that anime is exclusively non-realistic is also flawed. There are a number of anime which take a realistic (or very near realistic) look at people participating in competitive sports like Boxing, Tennis, Basketball, etc, or at boardgames like Go.
The idea that anime is based on combat is also false, and more blatantly so.
As for the rest of your argument, it assumes certain mentalities and ideals I still don't want to touch, and your statement which imply you think the term "pacifist" is an insult just reinforces that idea for me.
Shortman McLeod
First Post
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that *I* believe WoW is mindless hack 'n slash (I haven't played it, as you mentioned). I stated that "in many gamers' minds", it is thus. Which I think is a fair statement (albeit rather vague).Canis said:
Shortman McLeod
First Post
GreatLemur said:
Took me all of six seconds to find this at random:
http://www.cgmill.com/ss/3d/20051001_anime_girl.jpg
This is the kind of rubbish I think of when I think of anime.
WARNING: Rated PG-13, but probably not worksafe.
I think this counter-argument is an example of why we're never going to get anywhere discussing anime -- because one side, the non-fan side, talks about typical anime, and the other, the fan side, wants to speak in absolutes, which means they can always point to exceptions.TwinBahamut said:
A non-fan mentions anime, then the fans dismiss all his points as not true of all anime. Then the discussion continues, and the educated anime fans say, oh, no, no, that's just a small fraction of anime you're talking about, what is known as shonen anime. The non-fan says, OK, all I know is, I see bits of anime on TV, and I don't like it. The fan sighs and concludes, these non-fans just don't know anything about true anime.
TwinBahamut
First Post
How are you defining "typical anime" here, since I think we are having a serious miscommunication. Some of the very easy to see anime in the US is not "typical anime" by your standards. Two of the shows I mentioned in what you quote are called Prince of Tennis and Hikaru no Go. Prince of Tennis was shown on Toonami (the main mainstream source of anime these days), and both shows are shown on the successful Toonami Jetstream web-streaming service. Neither are obscure.mmadsen said:
Also, I can easily find romantic comedy anime on various channels that show anime. While it is not anime, the manga Fruits Basket is absurdly popular in the US, especially among girls, and hits the top-selling books charts just as much, if not more, than the manga for "typical" anime series like Naruto or Bleach. Fruits Basket is a romantic comedy about a girl who deals with a family of guys who turn into animals when she hugs them. Is this "typical" or not?
I mean, if you are talking about people using the term "anime" when they have never sat down and watched an episode of an anime series, ever, I might understand what you mean, but such people are not qualified to say anything about anime in the first place. It would be like someone complaining about the overly complex quadratic functions in the PHB, and the way it promotes aggression and antisocial behaviour, having never read the PHB or playing D&D. No one should be expected to take such a person seriously.
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Shortman McLeod said:
No one is arguing that anime only contains women that have realistic proportions and no where in the medium are there women that will develop severe back problems in the future.
I hazard a guess that anime fans would be the first to point to examples where females have half of their body weight in the chest area. (Just so everyone knows where I fall - I like some anime and hate others.)
They were asking for this occuance in D&D art, not in anime.
WizarDru
Adventurer
mmadsen said:
Your point is taken, but I think both sides are talking in absolutes. The disconnect occurs in that some non-fans represent anime as being one way, while some fans disagree. The issue you're sidestepping isn't that anime doesn't have those tropes...they have them in spades; the argument that a fan can always find an exception makes the implicit assumption that the exception is the rarity, when in some of these it's clearly not. Non-fans shouldn't be expected to know all about something they don't like, but they shouldn't bristle when fans point out that there's more to it, if they're going to use it as the basis for a negative influence on something like D&D.
The whole issue of 'anime-style' being introduced into D&D is an argument that seems to be based on attributes that aren't universal or exclusive to anime. I can dig if you say that D&D has too much 'superhero' elements in it or you don't like the various elements present, but I've yet to see a convincing argument of what those anime elements actually are. Like the idea of fantasy women with ridiculously large breasts. I mean, I have one word for you: Avalanche.
For extra credit, Richard Corben, Julie Bell and Boris Vallejo. etc.
TwinBahamut
First Post
WizarDru, you just explained that in a more reasonable and eloquent manner than I was able to. Thank you.
