Disdain for new fantasy

[TwinBahamut]

I agree entirely. However, I do not feel that entertainment is the *sole* purpose of fantasy, or any creative work. It is also a form of communication, a means of putting forth and exploring ideas etc.

But as you say, if its entertaining, then it is good on that level, wether it has anything "deeper" or not.

Yes, well, I am of the opinion that regardless of authorial intent or entertainment value, every last thing on this earth ever created by a human being puts forth and explores ideas, simply because humans by their very nature like having thoughts and sharing them. There isn't anything which doesn't explore ideas. Also, exploring ideas is part of the entertainment value of something.

One doesn't need to look for entertaining works that share ideas, in the same sense that one doesn't need to look for salt in pre-processed foods.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, well, I am of the opinion that regardless of authorial intent or entertainment value, every last thing on this earth ever created by a human being puts forth and explores ideas, simply because humans by their very nature like having thoughts and sharing them. There isn't anything which doesn't explore ideas. Also, exploring ideas is part of the entertainment value of something.

One doesn't need to look for entertaining works that share ideas, in the same sense that one doesn't need to look for salt in pre-processed foods.

One does need to look for ones that do so in an intelligent and thoughtful manner, though. Mindlessly exploring ideas occasionally produces beautiful insights. Intentionally working on your ideas and exploring them in a thoughtful way frequently does so.

 

[Merlion]

Yes, well, I am of the opinion that regardless of authorial intent or entertainment value, every last thing on this earth ever created by a human being puts forth and explores ideas, simply because humans by their very nature like having thoughts and sharing them. There isn't anything which doesn't explore ideas. Also, exploring ideas is part of the entertainment value of something.

One doesn't need to look for entertaining works that share ideas, in the same sense that one doesn't need to look for salt in pre-processed foods.

I agree with that as well. But as we're seeing here, some don't realize the facts you just mentioned.

 

[Mallus]

I'm saying real bottom-of-the-barrel crap rots the brain and stunts the imagination.

I'm saying that's wrong.

Plenty of smart, creative people I know choose to decompress with bottom-of-the-barrel crap. Just because you watch a "What Not to Wear" marathon one evening doesn't mean you can't, won't or don't read Proust the next.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Not to say that sort of thing isnt part of a lot of it. And even a big part of some of it. But it has no part at all in some, and only a small part in others.

??? Is this statement some sort of zen koan?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm saying that's wrong.

Plenty of smart, creative people I know choose to decompress with bottom-of-the-barrel crap. Just because you watch a "What Not to Wear" marathon one evening doesn't mean you can't, won't or don't read Proust the next.

You know what?

You're actually right.

The brain-rot occurs when you trick yourself into thinking that it's art, or when you don't use in an un-wind-y way, but as your main form of entertainment. I speak from personal experience, by the way.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I've seen .//hack/SIGN, I'm guessing, as it was before the computer-games and did not seem to rely on me having seen anything else. It was crummy, that's all I know. I've tried to watch it twice. It didn't get any better.

As for "quality always causes success", I say bollocks to that. It should be true, but it isn't. Mediocrity and simple, thoughtless enjoyability create success in most cases. If that's quality to you, by all means, take your Big Mac and Naruto episodes, and enjoy them. That's clearly not quality though, it's meaningless drivel providing temporary escapism/entertainment (Naruto being a prime example).

Quality and success can go together, but your insistence that they always do is true nonsense.

There you go, mixing up my words and your definitons again... Yes, quaity always goes with success, if you measure quality by my standards. I have no idea what standards you use, but they don't make any sense to me.

Certainly, I find it amusing that you deny your status as an elitist, when you make claims that the only thing that is popular is mediocrity and meaningless drivel. It is just another way of saying that your tastes are "better" than everyone else's, and that you are the brilliant source of truth regarding what has quality.

Trust me, I have seen some real drivel in my life. Naruto isn't that.

I don't know why you think I like Big Macs, though... I prefer home-cooked meals. Much batter tasting.

As for "originality", well, Naruto may be original, but to a pathetic degree by anime standards. It's certainly no Cowboy Bebop of FLCL now, in originality terms, is it?

Cowboy Bebop is original now? Does original mean "Ruin Explorer likes it"? Sorry, but it easily fits into the classic "Picaresqe" genre that predates the idea of the novel, and blends it with half a dozen common anime tropes. Nothing original at all, other than some setting elemetns (but that hardly counts these days). It is fun, though. FLCL, on the other hand, is just a classic coming of age story filled to the brim with manic energy (probably inspired by Excel Saga) and surrealistic and comic elements. Also very good, but not original. At least, not any more original than Naruto.

On the contrary, as I've directly stated, lots of anime is great. Lots is trash. 90% of everything is crap, and anime is no exception. Do not agree? In the 1990s most anime reaching America was part of the 90%, not the 10%, do you not agree?

yes, there is lots of crap. However, for your other question, the answer is no. Most anime reaching the US is taken from the 10%, not the 90%. It is the quality stuff that gets brought over.

 

[Merlion]

You know what?

You're actually right.

The brain-rot occurs when you trick yourself into thinking that it's art, or when you don't use in an un-wind-y way, but as your main form of entertainment. I speak from personal experience, by the way.

Nobody gets to decide what is or isnt "art" or what does or doesnt have value, for anyone but themselves. At least not when it comes to creative works and the like.

Now yes, there are things that are clearly made primarily for profit, reality shows and romance novels and the like. But again, if it gives someone enjoyment, or sparks an idea, it has value.

I do not accept the notion of objectively "bad" creative works.

 

[TwinBahamut]

One does need to look for ones that do so in an intelligent and thoughtful manner, though. Mindlessly exploring ideas occasionally produces beautiful insights. Intentionally working on your ideas and exploring them in a thoughtful way frequently does so.

I don't see the relevence to our discussion. Also, I disagree with the premise. Humans are highly intuitive creatures, with the ability to process incredibly large amounts of information in interesting ways, even while not explicitly paying attention to what they are doing. Thought progesses according to random connections and mass simultaneous processing. Intentional work is not necessary for the human brain to achieve extremely insightful and interesting results. Certainly, a level of critical examination of new ideas is useful, and the ability to formulate ideas in a logical manner and evaluate the logic of antoher's ideas, but these abilities are all that is required to get a large amount of information from anything. Authorial intent or originality of a work is irrelevent to these processes.

If anything, critical thinking is more useful when trying to sort through the miring mass of junk called the "network news" than it relevent to enjoying fantasy.

 

[Raven Crowking]

On the subject of whether or not "objective" crap exists:

Does anyone here think that The Hulk was not crap? I swear, that movie was 7 hours of my life I'll never get back..........

Does anyone here think that Tarzan and the Lost City was not crap? My son, who was 7 or 8 at the time and heavily into Power Rangers, looked up at me and said, "Dad, this movie makes no sense."

I think that, in some cases, the interplay between art and the viewer/reader/whathaveyou can create the illusion of depth that isn't there in the original work. I love Doctor Who but sometimes what I love about a particular story is coming from me, from what I read into it, rather than being something inherent in the story itself. It is sometimes the act of loving observation that has depth, not the thing observed.

I've published stories, poetry, and essays. Crap exists. I've had a bunch of it rejected. I still have electronic copies; I can prove it exists. I've heard myself sing. Trust me, that's an experience you don't want to have.


RC