Disdain for new fantasy

[Clavis]

There is no such thing as the one true set of ideas contained in a work. While I would not go so far as too 100% agree with the idea, the main trend of thought in literary criticism these days is based on the "Death of the Author", in which the identity and ideas of the author are irrelevant, and the main goal is examining a work based on the reader's identity and ideas.

I for one disagree with that school of thought, and hold to the idea that the author or creator is the single most important part of any art. In nature birdsong expresses the intelligence and health of its singers. Better singers are healthier and smarter, and those females who breed with them will likely have stronger and smarter chicks. In human life, art expresses the ideas, obsessions, physical capacities and metal states of its creators. It draws together those of similar ideas, and has persisted because of its use to society, and because artistic people are more attractive breeding partners.

When I choose to read a book, I do so because it is the kind of book that appeals to the kind of person I am. I am in sympathy with its author. If I enjoy a particular kind of music, it is because my nature is sympathetic to the kind of person who makes the kind of music in question. But the art itself is not expressive of MY nature, but rather my nature is sympathetic to the art. If we want to understand ourselves through art, we must understand the artist first, because in that way we can uncover what it is about that person that we stand in sympathy with.

How many of us have found our mates through creating art (playing guitar, etc.) or viewing art (going to the movies, at museums, etc.)?

When I identify myself as a lover of a particular kind of art, I already have something in common with all those who also like that kind of art. The art functions as a social glue, both defining an in-group and creating an out-group to persecute. So art draws together those of like mind, whether for love or war. On this thread, for example those who are in sympathy with Anime are arrayed against those who are not. For me, the question is not what does anime say about me, but what does it say about its creators that I either like, or do not like?

 

[Clavis]

I do not accept the notion of objectively "bad" creative works.

That statement could be used to justify Paris Hilton's musical "career".
Do you really want that on your conscience?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Well, that's because you're obviously not Ruin Explorer.

Nah, it's because he's obviously not played WoW! Zing!

I have, by the way. I was hypnotized by it for a long time, but I got better.

As for the refusal to accept that something can be crap, this seems to be a uniquely American "everyone and everything is yooneek!" sort of thing. I'm sorry guys, but repeated denial and complex arguments about "objective versus subjective qualities" don't make Dragonball Z not a steaming pile of crap. The idea that "nothing is crap" seems to be particularly popular with anime fans. I wonder why...? I guess it's because you guys* all so enlightened and stuff, eh?

What I don't get is why some people get their knickers in a total twist and weep themselves silly just because their favourite piece of mindless entertainment gets called "crap". It's not something I see in Britain. Plenty of people cheerful admit that they're watching crap over here, in my experience, but on the internet, if you call a spade a spade, or Naruto a crappy anime series for very young adults with little to no intellectual value or discussion of meaningful or universal ideas, then it's FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEWAR baby! Burning down the house!

Maybe it's just a cultural thing, with the whole "every individual is unique and wonderful" culture clashing with the "don't get too smug" culture?

Next someone will probably be telling me that an awful splodge of a painting is good because the person who did it is their son/daughter/friend. No, mate, it's not good. If you get real, you know that. What it has to you is emotional value, which is lovely and all, but doesn't mean it should be inflicted on the world as a whole.

Merlion - I guess you don't feel it's in any way hypocritical for you to imply that two things you don't like are "commercial" (reality shows and romance novels), yet that anime is like, kewl. I'm sorry buddy, but you can't get away with that. Romance novels are no more or less "commercial" than DBZ.

* - Considering I've been labelled an anime fan and own a fairly large quantity of anime, I guess this includes me - how have I escaped enlightenment?

 

[Merlion]

On the subject of whether or not "objective" crap exists:

Does anyone here think that The Hulk was not crap? I swear, that movie was 7 hours of my life I'll never get back..........

Does anyone here think that Tarzan and the Lost City was not crap? My son, who was 7 or 8 at the time and heavily into Power Rangers, looked up at me and said, "Dad, this movie makes no sense."

I think that, in some cases, the interplay between art and the viewer/reader/whathaveyou can create the illusion of depth that isn't there in the original work. I love Doctor Who but sometimes what I love about a particular story is coming from me, from what I read into it, rather than being something inherent in the story itself. It is sometimes the act of loving observation that has depth, not the thing observed.

I've published stories, poetry, and essays. Crap exists. I've had a bunch of it rejected. I still have electronic copies; I can prove it exists. I've heard myself sing. Trust me, that's an experience you don't want to have.


RC

But its all still relative. One person's crap is another's masterpiece. Its a matter of taste, and of what criteria are being applied (and even those criteria are going to be pretty much subjective.)

 

[Desdichado]

What I don't get is why some people get their knickers in a total twist and weep themselves silly just because their favourite piece of mindless entertainment gets called "crap". It's not something I see in Britain. Plenty of people cheerful admit that they're watching crap over here, in my experience, but on the internet, if you call a spade a spade, or Naruto a crappy anime series for very young adults with little to no intellectual value or discussion of meaningful or universal ideas, then it's FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEWAR baby! Burning down the house!

Maybe it's just a cultural thing, with the whole "every individual is unique and wonderful" culture clashing with the "don't get too smug" culture?

I have no problem admitting that many things I enjoy a great deal are crap (I enjoyed the Van Helsing movie fer cryin' out loud. Heck, I enjoy playing D&D!) but I'm less disposed to accept you as the arbiter of what is or isn't crap.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But its all still relative. One person's crap is another's masterpiece. Its a matter of taste, and of what criteria are being applied (and even those criteria are going to be pretty much subjective.)

Goddamn filthy hippies.

(the correct insulting response is "what are you, some sort of cretinous Rand-fan objectivist?", which I then have to hastily deny etc.)

I know what you're saying, but I will defend my right to call what I see as crap, crap, until the end of time. I believe that a lot of people are in horrible denial that what they are watching/playing is crap too, and they'd feel better and get into less flamewars if they could just laugh it off instead of attempting to use post-modern literary theory to attempt to "prove" that watching Naruto filler episodes is "A-okay!". It doesn't need to be proved, guys, it's a given. That it's crap is also a given. Doesn't stop it being enjoyable.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm less disposed to accept you as the arbiter of what is or isn't crap.

It's okay

I don't actually care whether you're disposed to or not, but if you keep telling me I can't call things crap, especially WoW, I will defend myself!

(You may imagine me clumsily assuming a "kung-fu" stance I saw in a Bruce Lee movie one time at this point).

I liked Van Helsing too. I just don't deny that it's crap. Ever. Nor do you? So where's the beef?

 

[Clavis]

Goddamn filthy hippies.

(the correct insulting response is "what are you, some sort of cretinous Rand-fan objectivist?", which I then have to hastily deny etc.)

Objectivist philosophy=true modern fantasy!

I know what you're saying, but I will defend my right to call what I see as crap, crap, until the end of time. I believe that a lot of people are in horrible denial that what they are watching/playing is crap too, and they'd feel better and get into less flamewars if they could just laugh it off instead of attempting to use post-modern literary theory to attempt to "prove" that watching Naruto filler episodes is "A-okay!". It doesn't need to be proved, guys, it's a given. That it's crap is also a given. Doesn't stop it being enjoyable.

Just don't blame Americans for Post-Modernist literary theory. It was the French that were responsible for that abortion.

 

[Merlion]

Nah, it's because he's obviously not played WoW! Zing!

I have, by the way. I was hypnotized by it for a long time, but I got better.

As for the refusal to accept that something can be crap, this seems to be a uniquely American "everyone and everything is yooneek!" sort of thing. I'm sorry guys, but repeated denial and complex arguments about "objective versus subjective qualities" don't make Dragonball Z not a steaming pile of crap. The idea that "nothing is crap" seems to be particularly popular with anime fans. I wonder why...? I guess it's because you guys* all so enlightened and stuff, eh?

What I don't get is why some people get their knickers in a total twist and weep themselves silly just because their favourite piece of mindless entertainment gets called "crap". It's not something I see in Britain. Plenty of people cheerful admit that they're watching crap over here, in my experience, but on the internet, if you call a spade a spade, or Naruto a crappy anime series for very young adults with little to no intellectual value or discussion of meaningful or universal ideas, then it's FLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEWAR baby! Burning down the house!

Maybe it's just a cultural thing, with the whole "every individual is unique and wonderful" culture clashing with the "don't get too smug" culture?

Next someone will probably be telling me that an awful splodge of a painting is good because the person who did it is their son/daughter/friend. No, mate, it's not good. If you get real, you know that. What it has to you is emotional value, which is lovely and all, but doesn't mean it should be inflicted on the world as a whole.

But when your talking about art, and entertainment, "good" is a totally relative and subjective concept.

Thats why I called you an elitist. You believe, seemingly, that enjoyment has no connection to quality, and that quality is determined by a certain set of criteria, and those criteria are determined by...

You? People with degrees in Art or Literature? Who exactly?

Whoever it is that you decide gets to decided what art is "good" and what art is "bad" is your "Elite."

I guess you don't feel it's in any way hypocritical for you to imply that two things you don't like are "commercial" (reality shows and romance novels), yet that anime is like, kewl. I'm sorry buddy, but you can't get away with that. Romance novels are no more or less "commercial" than DBZ.

And for you to do the reverse is ok?

I asserted that any creative work that thought is put into has value. You asserted that many works have no thought put into them, are basically commercial in nature and therefore valueless. I conceded the point that in some cases, artforms may become mass produced or overly commercial in their nature, and so lose much of that initial thought. This can be true for any medium.

However, first as I already mentioned, even if a work had no thought put into it at creation, if someone enjoys it, or if they are inspired to thought or feeling by it, it gains value on that end.

Next, I believe such cases are VERY rare. I think most of the people out of whose heads the creative works are coming DO put thought and feeling into them. Now the ones who market them, maybe not, but thats not the same thing.


I love stories. Many types of stories. I like most anime, but not all. I like much literature and movies, but not all. However, I understand that my opinion is no more valuable than anyone elses, so I do not subscribe to the notion that those works I dislike are somehow valueless just because I dislike them. In the end, any creative work has value because the one that made it put thought and feeling into it and/or it will be enjoyed and/or inspire at least some of those that experience it.

American/Brittish has nothing to do with it. Some people simply feel that their opinions...or those of supposed "experts" are somehow more valid than those of everyone else, and so whatever they dislike becomes "crap". You havent really presented any even supposed reasons for any of the things you mention being "crap"...but thats ok, because in the end, even any criteria of judging them are themselves subjective

 

[Raven Crowking]

But its all still relative. One person's crap is another's masterpiece. Its a matter of taste, and of what criteria are being applied (and even those criteria are going to be pretty much subjective.)

I don't believe that is true.

I do accept that we have no way to determine what is good and what is crap in an absolute sense, but that doesn't mean that there is not an objective difference between the two. An inability to make an absolute judgement should not render all judgement moot.

RC