Disdain for new fantasy

[Merlion]

It's okay

I don't actually care whether you're disposed to or not, but if you keep telling me I can't call things crap, especially WoW, I will defend myself!

(You may imagine me clumsily assuming a "kung-fu" stance I saw in a Bruce Lee movie one time at this point).

I liked Van Helsing too. I just don't deny that it's crap. Ever. Nor do you? So where's the beef?

For most of us, liking it and calling it crap at the same time is a contradiction in terms. If you like it, its good on the entertainment level.

It might not be as deep or philosophical as some things, but that doesnt make it bad. Art can have many purposes, and achieve each of those purposes in many ways.

 

[Merlion]

I don't believe that is true.

I do accept that we have no way to determine what is good and what is crap in an absolute sense, but that doesn't mean that there is not an objective difference between the two. An inability to make an absolute judgement should not render all judgement moot.

RC

Alone it doesnt. but we're talking about a subjective thing. Quality of art is inherently subjective, by nature. Theres nothing objective about it.

 

[Mallus]

It draws together those of similar ideas, and has persisted because of its use to society, and because artistic people are more attractive breeding partners.

But artists themselves are usually a poor and drunken (at best) lot, prone to mooching and violent rages... at the least the ones I like, at any rate.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And for you to do the reverse is ok?

Er yes? Because I'm not the one claiming it's wrong whilst doing it. Not very hard is it?

As for the rest of the hippy nonsense, I believe that humans, as a group, have a certain vague set of standards, that do not require an external arbiter, and that people, generally, have a feel for what's crap, and what's not, on an instinctive level. You don't need an artificial elite imposing outside opinions if you have a general consensus feeling on what's crap and what's not - just like we have a general consensus feeling on what's right and wrong on moral issues.

Is it subjective on a grand cultural or even species-based-level? Undoubtedly? Does it allow for me to call things crap, because it's broad enough? I believe so. You don't have to agree. If I think something is crap but most people disagree, then I'm probably wrong.

However, Naruto filler episodes and DBZ are most assuredly crap

It is a cultural divide, too, because as I've said, British people seem far less stressed about accepting something they like might be widely considered "crap" than Americans. There's clearly something at work there, though what it is is debatable.

For most of us, liking it and calling it crap at the same time is a contradiction in terms. If you like it, its good on the entertainment level.

I deny that. I have no problem doing so, nor do many others in this thread, and nor do most people I know (which would be "middle-class english southerners", mostly).

You have a problem in that you can't accept that something you like could be "crap". I do not share this problem. Do not assert that everyone does simply because you do, or you become exactly what you were claiming I am

 

[Raven Crowking]

Alone it doesnt. but we're talking about a subjective thing. Quality of art is inherently subjective, by nature. Theres nothing objective about it.

That is an unproven assertation based upon assumptions that I do not hold.

 

[Merlion]

Goddamn filthy hippies.

(the correct insulting response is "what are you, some sort of cretinous Rand-fan objectivist?", which I then have to hastily deny etc.)

I know what you're saying, but I will defend my right to call what I see as crap, crap, until the end of time. I believe that a lot of people are in horrible denial that what they are watching/playing is crap too, and they'd feel better and get into less flamewars if they could just laugh it off instead of attempting to use post-modern literary theory to attempt to "prove" that watching Naruto filler episodes is "A-okay!". It doesn't need to be proved, guys, it's a given. That it's crap is also a given. Doesn't stop it being enjoyable.

This is a seperate issue. You have, of course, the right to say whatever you please. But actions and words have consquences

First, people are allowed to disagree with you, and to express that disagreement.

Second, theres the issue of courtesy. People can have different opinions, but respect that the other person's opinion is valid. Thats where the big problem lies. If you think its crap, then its crap for you, but don't tell me that that means its crap for me as well in some ultimate objective sense. Thats for me to decide, not you. Telling people that their opinions about a subjective subject are crap, meaningless, ill informed etc is rude, and people will respond as such.

Then theres the enjoyment-quality distinction thing. You see enjoyability as seperate from "artistic quality" or whatever. For you, anything is "crap" that doesnt live up to certain artistic criteria, or criteria of depth and relevence, but it can still be fun to watch or read.

Many don't see the two as mutually exclusive, in either direction. At the most basic level, if something is enjoyable, than it is good if only on the basic entertainment level. I do feel that a work can be great on some levels and less good on others...or perhaps it simply doesnt address those levels at all, which is also valid. Much art is made with enjoyment as its primary purpose, and if it succeeds in that, then it is good. Some is made both for that purpose and to convey some message...but even then, the message mail fail for some, succeed for others.

In the end, just about any criteria you use to try and measure creative works are in themselves going to be subjective.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Telling people that their opinions about a subjective subject are crap, meaningless, ill informed etc is rude, and people will respond as such.

But that's exactly what you're doing to me

As I've said before, my experience is thus:

1) Some people are able to admit that things like they are "crap", and still like them (Van Helsing being the example earlier in this thread), they think it's funny when people say "That's crap!". Virtually all British people I know fall into this category.

2) Other people throw a giant wobbler every time someone brings up Naruto filler episodes and try to objectively and with great care and use of post-modern literary theory prove that Naruto isn't crap ever, because the other episodes some how magically un-crap the filler episodes because they liked the other episodes or something. Almost all the people I know like this are Yanks.

Break through your barriers. Accept that you like that which is crap, and you will be a better person for it.

 

[Nifft]

What about Buffy The Vampire Slayer (and Angel)? Buffy is taken quite seriously in certain academic circles. How would we feel about Joss Whedon's work as an influence on the future of D&D?

Oh god no.

I love the show, but let's face it: they're meta-gaming in-character. My group is bad enough without encouragement.

Erp, -- N

 

[Merlion]

That is an unproven assertation based upon assumptions that I do not hold.

I dont know why it would need to be proven. Its self evident. Until the last time I had this same discussion on these same boards, everyone I'd ever encountered used art as THE EXAMPLE of subjectivity, as oposed to objectivity.

For something to be objective, it must be the same for everyone. But take a piece of art, and without fail everyone will have a different opinion of it. Everyone will experience it subjectively. Now physically it is what it is. A book is whatever weight and dimensions it is...and the story contained in it, or at least the words printed on its pages, are the same for everyone. But wether they enjoy it...wether they learn anything from it, wether it inspires them, what emotions it evokes if any, and all the rest is going to vary from person to person.

 

[Merlion]

But that's exactly what you're doing to me

As I've said before, my experience is thus:

1) Some people are able to admit that things like they are "crap", and still like them (Van Helsing being the example earlier in this thread), they think it's funny when people say "That's crap!".

2) Other people throw a giant wobbler every time someone brings up Naruto filler episodes and try to objectively and with great care and use of post-modern literary theory prove that Naruto isn't crap ever, because the other episodes some how magically un-crap the filler episodes because they liked the other episodes or something.

Break through your barriers. Accept that you like that which is crap, and you will be a better person for it.

Give me an actual definition of "crap". Aside from you not liking it.

And all I am "doing to you" is stating the fact that you dont get to decide what is or isnt "crap", for anyone other than yourself.