D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Noctem]

You are correct, upon rereading the description. I have changed my post to reflect this, and quoted the text in the book.

No he's not correct. The target of the spell is the druid, not the wildshape form. The druid, which is the target of the spell, is never reduced to 0 hit points. Just like if you had temp HP, you would not be turned to dust just because you went to 0 temp HP. He's completely wrong.

I've shown that the RAW of the Making an Attack section of the PHB clearly explains the steps for all attacks in the game. There's 3 steps for ALL attacks in 5e. You cannot force the game to mix steps or change the step order just because you don't understand how the rules of the game works like maxperson is doing. The effect of turning a target to dust can only happen in the last step of the Making an Attack section. That's after targeting, making the attack, rolling dice, dealing damage, resolving damage, etc..

The only way to change that order is if the game element specifically states that it does. Wildshape specifically says that you revert back to druid form during the resolution of damage, if that damage would reduce the wildshape form to 0 hit points AND that you take any remaining damage after reverting. Disintegrate does not specify anything like that for turning stuff to dust and instead would be restricted to having the turned to dust effect happen in the 3rd step of Making an Attack. At which point, the druid has already reverted back to druid form. The check is then made vs the current HP pool and not against the wildshape hp pool like if it was a seperate target of the spell. The druid is never turned to ash unless the spell deals enough damage to cause the wildshape to revert and the druid to be reduced to 0 hit points.

This is both RAW and RAI. Present the rules text for your arguments, put up or shut up

 

[Hriston]

No. RAW is always open to change. Many rules have only one interpretation because they are crystal clear. For example, druids get Wild Shape and Druid Circle at 2nd level. There is no other interpretation possible for that rule.

So what? That's just a good indication that your interpretation lines up with RAI. Crawford has said that this is not the case regarding Wild Shape and Disintegrate, so you might want to adjust your interpretation.

 

[Noctem]

Well if there's a couple things I've learned after reading through this discussion. I have to determine if I am going to either A) House Rule - severely tweak wild shape, or B) House rule - remove disintegrate from my game.

There's no need for either of those solutions. The game works fine, you just have to follow the rules for how these game elements interact.

 

[Noctem]

So what? That's just a good indication that your interpretation lines up with RAI. Crawford has said that this is not the case regarding Wild Shape and Disintegrate, so you might want to adjust your interpretation.

Yes exactly, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is realizing that him claiming RAW about what he's saying is nonsense. Not only is he not correct as per the lead designer of the game, but the rules themselves don't agree with him. His interpretation of the rules is faulty on all counts.

 

[Imaculata]

No he's not correct. The target of the spell is the druid, not the wildshape form.

You are suggesting that the Druid and his Wildshape form are two separate beings. They are not, they are the same creature, but with separate health pools.

The druid, which is the target of the spell, is never reduced to 0 hit points. Just like if you had temp HP, you would not be turned to dust just because you went to 0 temp HP. He's completely wrong.

While the Druid is shapeshifted, he IS reduced to 0 hit points, and then brought back to his original health pool.

 

[Noctem]

No I'm suggesting the opposite, that the target is the druid, not the wildshape form because the wildshape form is not something that can be specifically targeted the way maxperson is saying. The wildshape form being reduced to 0 hp is not even capable to trigger things that trigger from a target or creature being reduced to 0 HP from damage. It is not a separate creature which can proc those effects. The only way those effects can proc is by the DRUID being reduced to 0 HP. That's why Jeremy Crawford said that disintegrate doesn't proc from reducing wildshape to 0 HP. It is not the target of the spell.

And no, he is not. No effect will ever proc from the wildshape being reduced to 0 HP by damage (like disintegrate) EXCEPT for the druid reverting to druid form AFAIK. No other effect can proc, because the druid is NOT reduced to 0 hit points. The wildshape form is, which is not a valid target for the spell. This again is specifically for things that deal damage because that's what the wildshape form specifies. Effects like Power Word Kill however will still function and kill the druid outright.

 

[Imaculata]

No I'm suggesting the opposite, that the target is the druid, not the wildshape form because the wildshape form is not something that can be specifically targeted the way maxperson is saying. The wildshape form being reduced to 0 hp is not even capable to trigger things that trigger from a target or creature being reduced to 0 HP from damage. It is not a separate creature which can proc those effects. The only way those effects can proc is by the DRUID being reduced to 0 HP. That's why Jeremy Crawford said that disintegrate doesn't proc from reducing wildshape to 0 HP. It is not the target of the spell.

And no, he is not. No effect will ever proc from the wildshape being reduced to 0 HP by damage (like disintegrate) EXCEPT for the druid reverting to druid form AFAIK. No other effect can proc, because the druid is NOT reduced to 0 hit points. The wildshape form is, which is not a valid target for the spell. This again is specifically for things that deal damage because that's what the wildshape form specifies. Effects like Power Word Kill however will still function and kill the druid outright.

Hmm, I must admit this makes sense. You make a good point.

But this still leaves it open to interpretation about whether we consider the HP that the Druid has in Wildshape to be his actual HP (I think so) and if this triggers the spells effect when it hits 0, or whether it is just one of his health pools. Personally I'd rule that since the Druid effectively has two health pools, both need to be brought to 0 before the effect triggers.

 

[Jaelommiss]

No I'm suggesting the opposite, that the target is the druid, not the wildshape form because the wildshape form is not something that can be specifically targeted the way maxperson is saying. The wildshape form being reduced to 0 hp is not even capable to trigger things that trigger from a target or creature being reduced to 0 HP from damage. It is not a separate creature which can proc those effects. The only way those effects can proc is by the DRUID being reduced to 0 HP. That's why Jeremy Crawford said that disintegrate doesn't proc from reducing wildshape to 0 HP. It is not the target of the spell.

And no, he is not. No effect will ever proc from the wildshape being reduced to 0 HP by damage (like disintegrate) EXCEPT for the druid reverting to druid form AFAIK. No other effect can proc, because the druid is NOT reduced to 0 hit points. The wildshape form is, which is not a valid target for the spell. This again is specifically for things that deal damage because that's what the wildshape form specifies. Effects like Power Word Kill however will still function and kill the druid outright.

When your entire argument hinges on the druid's HP being different to the wildshape's HP, it really helps when the book doesn't explicitly state that "you assume the beast's hit points" upon wildshaping. Furthermore, the sentence that mentions reverting says that it occurs "if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." In both quotations the term "you" refers to the druid. If the wildshape's hit points were not the druid's hit points then it would impossible for druid to revert as a result of taking damage, because the druid could not under any circumstances drop to 0 hit points. There is no possible reading of the book in which the wildshape's hit points are not the druid's own hit points, and therefore the basis for your argument that the druid isn't the one being reduced to 0 hit points is unfounded.

Of course, since the druid's hit points are replaced with the beast's own, it is possible for the druid to drop to 0 hit points, avoiding the messiness that your interpretation causes and allowing events the trigger off of being reduced to 0 hit points to occur (including disintegrate). Whether or not it is fair for a druid to get disintegrated while wildshaped is entirely separate, but that it occurs is fully supported by any logical reading of the rules. Personally I don't believe that a second level druid's 2/short rest ability should so easily overcome a 13th level wizard's 1/day 6th level slot, but that has no bearing on what the rules actually say.

 

[Noctem]

Hmm, I must admit this makes sense. You make a good point.

But this still leaves it open to interpretation about whether we consider the HP that the Druid has in Wildshape to be his actual HP (I think so) and if this triggers the spells effect when it hits 0, or whether it is just one of his health pools. Personally I'd rule that since the Druid effectively has two health pools, both need to be brought to 0 before the effect triggers.

Spells that look at the current HP, but don't require damage to proc their effects, like Power Word Kill will work. However spells that require damage to proc their effects like Disintegrate will not, because during the resolution of damage the target reverts and when looking to see if the TARGET has been reduced to 0 hp by the spell after step 2 of the Making an Attack section the target is not reduced to 0 hit points unless the druid actually is via excess damage post reversion. Any effect like this will not proc unless the latter is true.

 

[Noctem]

When your entire argument hinges on the druid's HP being different to the wildshape's HP, it really helps when the book doesn't explicitly state that "you assume the beast's hit points" upon wildshaping. Furthermore, the sentence that mentions reverting says that it occurs "if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die." In both quotations the term "you" refers to the druid. If the wildshape's hit points were not the druid's hit points then it would impossible for druid to revert as a result of taking damage, because the druid could not under any circumstances drop to 0 hit points. There is no possible reading of the book in which the wildshape's hit points are not the druid's own hit points, and therefore the basis for your argument that the druid isn't the one being reduced to 0 hit points is unfounded.

Of course, since the druid's hit points are replaced with the beast's own, it is possible for the druid to drop to 0 hit points, avoiding the messiness that your interpretation causes and allowing events the trigger off of being reduced to 0 hit points to occur (including disintegrate). Whether or not it is fair for a druid to get disintegrated while wildshaped is entirely separate, but that it occurs is fully supported by any logical reading of the rules. Personally I don't believe that a second level druid's 2/short rest ability should so easily overcome a 13th level wizard's 1/day 6th level slot, but that has no bearing on what the rules actually say.

You not only didn't understand my post but you also claim something that contradicts both RAW and RAI. A druid reverting from wildshape CANNOT proc disintegrate. Both JEremy Crawford and the rules for the game tell you so.... And yet here you are claiming it does.. There is no mess at all, refusal to read doesn't mean that the content is messy.

I could care less about what is fair for the purposes of this discussion. That's not what is important since fairness is completely relative to each individual. I care about what the RAI is (we know it for a fact) and what the RAW (which can be read in the rulebook for this game). Bias has no place here.