D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

Arial Black

Adventurer
... EDIT: It occurs to me, that's probably the real distinction being drawn. I'm reading "reduces you to zero" as "at some point during the resolution your hit points go to zero". I wonder if people are parsing it as "you are reduced to zero", meaning, "your hit points remain zero".

Exactly! Well put!

This is the source of the two opposing factions, and why each faction believes the other side is so totally wrong!

So, this should be our new starting point. Each of the two interpretations ('event' or 'result') is, objectively, equally plausible from the RAW, in terms of what words can mean. But the writer definitely has one, and only one, of those two interpretations in mind when he wrote those words, and whichever one it was, those words support that interpretation! How do we know? Because those words support both!

But the writer isn't thinking about any other interpretations; only his own. He reads his own words back to himself; do they mean what he wants them to mean? Yes! Job done, he carries on to his next job, never pausing to think that his words could also be interpreted a different way.

If only we knew which way he meant it. If only someone had communicated with Mr Crawford and asked him. But wait! Maxperson did! And what was the answer?

The answer is that, after the hp of the beast form are reduced to zero, the druid reverts and the excess is taken by the druid. If those hp are reduced to zero, then dust. If not, it's just damage.
 

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seebs

Adventurer
I can't remember ever having an argument with anyone over the rules of Monopoly, nor even a game that is a bit more complicated, such as Betrayal at House on the Hill. There will always be house rules, but we're discussing specific house rules here that have emerged as a result of unclear rules... I don't see that very often when playing other tabletop games.

Wouldn't you agree that the description of the Disintegrate spell could easily be reworded in a way that gets rid of any confusion?

No. I would agree that you could get rid of this specific confusion.

So, then... couldn't you do that with the whole book?

No.

Systems of rules become prone to ambiguities or conflicts largely as a matter of scale. Basically, if you have 10 rules, there could be conceivably 45 different interactions of two rules. (There's 90 total pairs, but we ignore order, so it's only 45.) So rule 1 can interact with any of rules 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Rule 2 can interact with 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (and the interaction with 1 was already dealt with). If you have 20 rules, it's 190 interactions. If you have 30 rules, it's 435 interactions.

The reason that RPGs tend to have lots more complicated interactions is that their rules are both much more open-ended and much larger than the rules of most tabletop board games. The open-endedness means that the set of possible interactions grows dramatically, because you don't have a small fixed set of options at most points. The huge number of rules means there's that many more special cases that could conceivably be a clash.

If you just didn't have the disintegrate spell, there's only one possible-conflict I know of with wild shape, which is the question of what happens if the leftover damage is enough to outright kill the initial form, and I think the wording of the wild shape rule tells you that they are thinking about the left-over damage, because they tell you to do something else with it, which implies that it doesn't have the instant-kill possibility, probably.

But say you add another power, like a contingency spell that will fire off a cure wounds spell if you are dropped to zero hit points. Now you have two new questions: One, how does that interact with wild shape, two, how does that interact with disintegrate.

Oh, wait. I missed one. Look at the fiend pack warlock. "when you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points, you gain temporary hit points". Does that proc off a "temporary" reduction to zero hit points? If we assume the designer's intent is understood to be that wild shape happens before other things check for zero hit points, then probably not.

What about polymorph effects? Is a druid a "shapechanger"? Say that I am a 17th level wizard with 2 levels of druid, and I cast shapechange. If I assume a new shape, then assume another new shape, and I am reduced to zero hit points, do I end up back in my original form or in the second form I'd changed into?

Long story short: If you think you can write a system of rules this large and this flexible, which is not subject to ambiguities or confusions, you go right ahead and do that, and I know dozens of professional writers who will idolize you forever if you manage it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Wouldn't you agree that the description of the Disintegrate spell could easily be reworded in a way that gets rid of any confusion?

Probably not. It could be clearer, but some confusion is bound to exist.

So, then... couldn't you do that with the whole book?

No. No RPG ever has even come remotely close to accomplishing that. 3e, the worst offender that I have experience for "clarity" resulted in more rules arguments than any edition prior to it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Exactly! Well put!

This is the source of the two opposing factions, and why each faction believes the other side is so totally wrong!

So, this should be our new starting point. Each of the two interpretations ('event' or 'result') is, objectively, equally plausible from the RAW, in terms of what words can mean. But the writer definitely has one, and only one, of those two interpretations in mind when he wrote those words, and whichever one it was, those words support that interpretation! How do we know? Because those words support both!

No. Parsing is not RAW. What is says is what is RAW. If you are changing "reduces the target to 0" into "you are reduced to 0", you are not engaging in RAW, but rather you are creating a house rule. RAW can only ever be what is explicitly written, not some interpretation that requires a change to the language.

If only we knew which way he meant it. If only someone had communicated with Mr Crawford and asked him. But wait! Maxperson did! And what was the answer?

There was no answer. I never asked him what the language of disintegrate was supposed to be. I only asked him what the result would be and he very significantly did not tell me. Rather he gave intent instead. That's very telling because if RAW had backed up intent, he would have simply given me the ruling like he usually does.

The answer is that, after the hp of the beast form are reduced to zero, the druid reverts and the excess is taken by the druid. If those hp are reduced to zero, then dust. If not, it's just damage.

This is false. He never said that. He simple said that the intent was for the druid to survive. He never made a ruling like that.
 

Long story short: If you think you can write a system of rules this large and this flexible, which is not subject to ambiguities or confusions, you go right ahead and do that, and I know dozens of professional writers who will idolize you forever if you manage it.

A lot of the examples you give, basically revolve around the unclear state of a Wild Shape transformation. So, couldn't you define the Wild Shape ability better, to clarify any and all these complications? Suppose you literally add a rule that defines that any and all spell and ability effects that trigger on 0 hp, only trigger if it's your actual hp, and not that of a transformation, or temporary hp?
 

Bleys Icefalcon

First Post
I find it amusing that the OP has long since bowed out, and now it's turned into two completely entrenched and intractable positions: He's Dust, or the Wild Shape protects him from Dusting. I hope I am not the only person who has realized neither side is going to agree with the other, period... right? Has anyone jumped on the WotC twitter feed and put this link there and asked for a definitive, final, ruling?
 

seebs

Adventurer
A lot of the examples you give, basically revolve around the unclear state of a Wild Shape transformation. So, couldn't you define the Wild Shape ability better, to clarify any and all these complications? Suppose you literally add a rule that defines that any and all spell and ability effects that trigger on 0 hp, only trigger if it's your actual hp, and not that of a transformation, or temporary hp?

You probably could. But what about the reversion-from-polymorph itself? Nothing would trigger that if you had a rule saying that effects don't trigger from transformation hit points going to zero.

Basically, you could probably fix this one, but I'd be surprised if the fix didn't end up creating some new unintended interaction. The point here isn't that this particular ability has weird interactions; it's that the task of eliminating all the unintended interactions in a set of rules is well-studied, and generally regarded as impractical for any reasonably large set of rules. D&D is at least an order of magnitude too large not to have rule interaction problems, and no amount of "fixing" them will actually get rid of them.
 

seebs

Adventurer
I find it amusing that the OP has long since bowed out, and now it's turned into two completely entrenched and intractable positions: He's Dust, or the Wild Shape protects him from Dusting. I hope I am not the only person who has realized neither side is going to agree with the other, period... right? Has anyone jumped on the WotC twitter feed and put this link there and asked for a definitive, final, ruling?

I don't actually have that strong an opinion on it. I think that, as written, it's pretty clearly ambiguous how you resolve multiple "at zero hit points" effects if they contradict each other. If I were running a game and this happened, I'd do one of two things:

1. Wild-shape form starts to disintegrate, then starts reverting, and the new form is also disintegrating, leaving a pile of dust.
2. Wild-shape form starts to disintegrate, then dust swirls into druid form.

I am honestly not sure which I'd think is better, but there is no way at all I would issue a ruling that did not acknowledge that both effects clearly triggered; the question is which of them wins. I might do something like "you are in druid form, but you take the FULL damage, not just the overlap damage, because of the disintegrate wiping out part of your material".

And the designers have been asked, and have given an answer as to their intent (wild shape wins) but not as a ruling.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A lot of the examples you give, basically revolve around the unclear state of a Wild Shape transformation. So, couldn't you define the Wild Shape ability better, to clarify any and all these complications? Suppose you literally add a rule that defines that any and all spell and ability effects that trigger on 0 hp, only trigger if it's your actual hp, and not that of a transformation, or temporary hp?

The more you clarify, the more complications you open up with other aspects of the game. Instead of one rule that's vague and interpretive for DMs to rule on, you have a bunch of rules that end up being interpretive when they come across other parts of the game that clash with them. That's why 3e was the worst offender for arguing and debating rules.
 

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