Dispel Magic

[Lizard]

Why would they feel they were using magic? The only way a Martial hero's player would feel like he is using "magic by another name" is if the player is far too ingrained in D&D thinking. A fighter using Tide of Iron doesn't feel like "gee, this is magical!" Same thing with the rogue, etc.

If you do about the same damage, use about the same resources, have about the same general options...if it quacks like a duck...

If the power sources don't produce *meaningful* mechanical differences, there's tremendous sameness. The old methods of distinguishing characters - variable power curves over levels, variable resource management, diversity vs. depth - don't apply in 4e. Everyone has the same BAb, the same saves, the same number of powers/level, the same power management issues, and so on. A warlord can heal as well as a cleric. Rogues, rangers, and warlocks are all Strikers. The distinction between a magic missile and a crossbow bolt is now solely one of ammunition, and who the hell has EVER run out of ammo in Actual Play?

So, yeah, I'd like a more powerful dispel magic, so that Martial heroes feel they're really doing something *different* than their divine and arcane counterparts. Magic should be unreliable, fickle, mysterious -- or at least be a resource which can be removed or shut down more easily than the training/skill which are the basis of a Martial heroes powers. (The use of PE/D 'Martial' abilities REALLY makes them feel like spells; the more that can be done to diffirentiate true spells from 'martial exploits', the better.)

 

[Knightlord]

If you do about the same damage, use about the same resources, have about the same general options...if it quacks like a duck...

I don't think I follow. What you mentioned are out-of-game thoughts. Med, and correct me if i'm wrong Med, implied that the characters in game do not think of their abilities as magical. It's just what they do, something they've learned or have gained through training. Now, looking at it from a player's view (as you seem to be doing), then yes, the Martial Power Source looks kinda magical in nature, though I suspect that is due the designers just trying to balance the three current Sources. But looking through a character's perspective, they're just maneuvers they pull off and there's no magic about it.

 

[Lacyon]

If you do about the same damage, use about the same resources, have about the same general options...if it quacks like a duck...

Which martial ability shuts down zones and conjurations again?

If the power sources don't produce *meaningful* mechanical differences, there's tremendous sameness. The old methods of distinguishing characters - variable power curves over levels, variable resource management, diversity vs. depth - don't apply in 4e. Everyone has the same BAb, the same saves, the same number of powers/level, the same power management issues, and so on. A warlord can heal as well as a cleric. Rogues, rangers, and warlocks are all Strikers. The distinction between a magic missile and a crossbow bolt is now solely one of ammunition, and who the hell has EVER run out of ammo in Actual Play?

The sample characters have meaningful mechanical differences starting at level one. There's no reason to believe that a Warlord necessarily heals as well as a Cleric (though there can be some certainty that he heals better than a Paladin). The distinction between Magic Missile and a crossbow bolt is that it attacks Reflex while still counting as a basic attack.

So, yeah, I'd like a more powerful dispel magic, so that Martial heroes feel they're really doing something *different* than their divine and arcane counterparts. Magic should be unreliable, fickle, mysterious -- or at least be a resource which can be removed or shut down more easily than the training/skill which are the basis of a Martial heroes powers. (The use of PE/D 'Martial' abilities REALLY makes them feel like spells; the more that can be done to diffirentiate true spells from 'martial exploits', the better.)

You've got a powerful dispel magic. It shuts down a pit fiend's army of summons in one shot, among other things. You've got magical effects that are actually doing something *different* than their martial counterparts (such as fly and invisibility and shutting down an army of summons in one shot).

Powerful, universally applicable Dispel Magic doesn't make magic any more fickle or mysterious, it just means that the best counter to magic is more magic.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Which martial ability shuts down zones and conjurations again?

Give it time.

 

[med stud]

If you do about the same damage, use about the same resources, have about the same general options...if it quacks like a duck...

I don't think I follow. What you mentioned are out-of-game thoughts. Med, and correct me if i'm wrong Med, implied that the characters in game do not think of their abilities as magical. It's just what they do, something they've learned or have gained through training. Now, looking at it from a player's view (as you seem to be doing), then yes, the Martial Power Source looks kinda magical in nature, though I suspect that is due the designers just trying to balance the three current Sources. But looking through a character's perspective, they're just maneuvers they pull off and there's no magic about it.

That's what I meant, yes. A fighter cleaving doesn't seem magical to me as a player and it wouldn't look magical if you would describe it.

 

[med stud]

If you do about the same damage, use about the same resources, have about the same general options...if it quacks like a duck...

If the power sources don't produce *meaningful* mechanical differences, there's tremendous sameness. The old methods of distinguishing characters - variable power curves over levels, variable resource management, diversity vs. depth - don't apply in 4e. Everyone has the same BAb, the same saves, the same number of powers/level, the same power management issues, and so on. A warlord can heal as well as a cleric. Rogues, rangers, and warlocks are all Strikers. The distinction between a magic missile and a crossbow bolt is now solely one of ammunition, and who the hell has EVER run out of ammo in Actual Play?

Mechanical differences isn't the same thing as thematical differences. It is a b***h to balance, though. Power management exists, not in availability but in choices what power to use. Then it's a case of preference what kind of managament you like most.

So, yeah, I'd like a more powerful dispel magic, so that Martial heroes feel they're really doing something *different* than their divine and arcane counterparts. Magic should be unreliable, fickle, mysterious -- or at least be a resource which can be removed or shut down more easily than the training/skill which are the basis of a Martial heroes powers. (The use of PE/D 'Martial' abilities REALLY makes them feel like spells; the more that can be done to diffirentiate true spells from 'martial exploits', the better.)

Magic that PCs can use will never be mysterious. The player needs the exact rules to be able to play and if you know everything about something, it stops being mysterious. As for fickle and unreliable: Sometimes you succeed with your spell (=defeat the other guy's defense), sometimes not. Same thing with random damage etc. Much of this is up to description as well.

I don't see why magic necessarily should be easier to turn off than skill and training. There is no magic IRL to compare with. There is though a lot of in-grained thinking about how magic should behave, learned from years and years of RPGs and CRPGs. Just because it was done that way in the past doesn't mean that it is the only way to do it.

You certainly can't use logic as an explanation why magic should come in discrete packages and be easy to turn off. That's a pure D&D-ism, in any case the per day- nature of spells.

 

[Cyronax]

Give it time.

That's not much of an argument. I could twiddle with some weird marking ability that enables a fighter to shut down a marked caster's ongoing conjurations or something (... even though that'd be weird if the conjuration weren't sustained by minor actions?).

Conversely, I can simply assume that the designers are establishing a 'design bible' that will maintain the balance and proper scope of the various power sources.

Idle spec. Anyway, if you're ever proved right (by an official WotC sourcebook), then 4e will have officially jumped the shark, IMO. I think 3.5 jumped the shark with the release of the Player's Handbook II .... neither here nor there.

C.I.D.

 

[med stud]

Give it time.

I would be very surprised if it came, at least from WotC. It would be like waiting for a green instant in MtG that deals 3 damage to a target for one colourless mana and one green, no strings attached.

 

[Leatherhead]

Give it time.

I wonder if they will remake Iron Heart Surge?

 

[FireLance]

Which martial ability shuts down zones and conjurations again?

Being whacked repeatedly by a weapon should shut down most conjurations.