Dispelling the anti-4e misinformation and why 4e is the best ever!

[Najo]

I do not understand most of the reasons for the anti 4e crowd. Honestly from what I have seen and experienced with 4e so far, 4e is the very best version of D&D so far.

Most of the common complaints I've seen are hands down not true. I felt like laying out a few along with my opinion (for what that is worth).

1) The game sold out to sell miniatures and is no longer D&D.

D&D started with miniatures, 3.x heavily brought them back in and bogged the rules down with them. 4.0 made miniatures easy to use with the rules and actually made the encounters using them fun. I never used miniatures before, I resented 3.x need for them, and I love how D&D 4.0 uses them. Combat in 4.0 is intense and miniatures add to it.

2) Character concepts and classes are simplified and restricted in 4.0

Until 3.x, multiclassing and complicated characters were a mess. In 3.x they were a power gamers dream and everyone else's nightmare. 3.x leveling and multiclassing was impossible to balance. In 4.0 you have the simplicity of pre 3.x classes, along with diverse powers and feats, balanced multiclassing rules and the ability to build diverse class concepts from the core books better than any previous edition.

3) Wizards are no longer D&D wizards.

This is plain not true. Spell books, check. Daily prepared spells, check. An assortment of combat spells, check. Rituals to represent the more complicated story/ utility spells, check. Cantrips are awesome. The wizard is a very rewarding character that can contribute to every encounter without running out of spells and his abilities across the levels feels like D&D. They use web, sleep, feather fall, invisibility, magic missile, fireball. They die in close combat if not protected. They reward smart and creative players. The new wizard to me is the coolest and most D&D wizard yet, the only stuff missing is the silly "disney" style magic that hurt the immersion of the story.

4) The classes all feel the same.

What?! Fighters now suck up damage and dish out damage while manipulating anything adjectent to them. Paladins suck it up, dish it out (not as much as the fighter) and heal. Clerics heal like made, throw damage around and fight a bit. Rogues manuver around the fights, sneak attack, tumble and dodge, and distract and manipulate the enemy. Rangers use stealth, hit and run tactics and commando style fighting (and NO SPELLS!!!). All of the classes have their thing, and they all write up differently. Each has many options, so no to fighters have to feel exactly the same. 3.x did not do this well at all.

5) Its not D&D, it is more like WOW.

This is crazy. The only thing it has in common with WOW is the classes are built to all play different and the game is easy to start playing and learn. The game more than ever focuses on ROLE playing, adventure, action, mystery, fantasy and perilous threats to be faced and defeated. This version of D&D embraces its story driven strengths and builds them into every mechanic through the game. The monster manual is loaded with lore and awesome back story. The races, class powers and rituals have flavor text and are loaded with feel. 4e is the edition of D&D that is furthest from games like WOW. If you read the books and play the game it is obvious. The system gets out of your way.

6) D&D 4.0 is like a video game and no longer requires a real DM.

I have ran D&D for over 25 years. This is the easiest and most fun verison I have ever ran. I will never go back. DMing 4.0 is like drag and drop, WYSIWYG software with a tad of photoshop elements. It is so easy to tweak modules, monsters and rules. The game systems run in the background easily. Anything I want to do I can easily plop in. AND NO MORE HOURS AND HOURS OF PREP BUILDING MONSTERS AND NPCS!!! I can focus on story and get the monsters customized in short amount of time. It is unreal.

I am amazed at how many people are looking to find things wrong with 4e. Your missing out on an amazing experience. I own and run a game store. We have hosted dozens of games now and not one person who has played 4e has disliked it, they all loved it. 4e sales are through the roof.

If you are feeling 4e ruined D&D, take another look. If you have a concern or opinion state it here and give me a chance to test your point of view. I have yet to find anything major wrong with the game, and am blown away at the work Mike, Andy, James and the WOTC team did. Scott did not lead us astray. D&D finally is designed to support the art of the game. This product is beautiful and near perfect.

 

[FireLance]

There is a quote about Blizzard and Starcraft from this article:

"Blizzard does not innovate. They simply take an existing game, extract the good parts from it, take away the bad parts, and turn it into a streamlined product that is easy to play but hard to master"

The same could probably be said about WotC and 4e.

Unfortunately, each person's definition of "good" and "bad" is different, and if what somebody considered "good" was something that WotC considered "bad" and removed from the game, he would naturally have a negative reaction to 4e.

As for me, I generally like what I see of 4e. There seems to be some wonkiness with respect to the skill challenge system, but nothing's perfect.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have no problem with 4E.
I see any given D&D edition as a base platform. From that base, I just add stuff as seems good. And whatever the players want to add, we throw into the mix.

I mean, whatever is fun, is the rule.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

It's too late for an in-depth reply, but I will say this - you may be the first person ever to say 4e multiclassing is great on all levels

PS: Are you aware that this thread will only cause more people to dis-like 4e? Honestly now.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It's too late for an in-depth reply, but I will say this - you may be the first person ever to say 4e multiclassing is great on all levels

I personally also adore 4e multiclassing, the ability to pick and choose what powers you get to build a specific character concept, instead of being overloaded with tons of useless junk is a godsent.

 

[Najo]

It's too late for an in-depth reply, but I will say this - you may be the first person ever to say 4e multiclassing is great on all levels

PS: Are you aware that this thread will only cause more people to dis-like 4e? Honestly now.

I didn't say that 4e multiclassing is great on all levels. It is better in practice than any previous edition though. Pre 3.x multiclassing is a joke. 3.x multiclassing is great concept wise, but terrible in practice with the open ended take levels from any class or prestige class. 4.0 multiclassing is swap powers with 1 other class through feats.

With how simple yet flexible class building and multiclassing is in 4.0 it is so far the most elegant design to date. I think it could be cleaned up a bit, but it is a great and fearless direction for WOTC to go and it works for the most part.


As for your second comment, I like to think the current 4.0 players are not going to be turned againts 4.0 with this. So that means the 4.0 haters are going to read it and either a) not change their mind b) consider changing their minds c) change their mind and start playing 4.0. So, really, me pointing out my opinions isn't going to hurt much.

 

[AZRogue]

The reason, IMO, that some people prefer 3E to 4E is this: 4E has removed much of the complexity inherent to the system; some people liked some of that complexity.

As third party publishers, Dungeon and Dragon magazines, and WotC supplements are released and the complexity increases, at least in some cases, some of the things that people are missing will return. Still, the changes are pretty jarring so it's only understandable that some people are reacting negatively.

I wouldn't worry about things. 4E is just newly born. I'm curious to see how interesting it is after a years worth of supplements and information has been released.

 

[vagabundo]

I completely agree with the OP. The only real reason not to go 4e is your level of investment in 3e. And even then I would grab many of the core 4e concepts as I could and keep some level of compatibility (core combat, healing surges, rituals, npc/monster building).

Aside: I really like 4e multiclassing. It maybe on the weak side, but it is extendable and I'd prefer weak to be the default.

 

[delericho]

1) The game sold out to sell miniatures and is no longer D&D.

Until 3.5e, I never used miniatures with my games. Indeed, many of the places I played making the use of miniatures impossible. 3.5e combat was sufficiently complex that although miniatures weren't required the game ran a whole lot better with them than without. I considered this a backwards step.

4e takes things even further in this direction - I wouldn't even consider running this game without miniatures. This means that had 4e been the D&D of the day back when I learned, I would not now be a gamer.

As for "no longer D&D", I disagree. However, it is very much a different game from that which has gone before, so I can well see how someone would come to that opinion. Your opinion varies from theirs, and that's fair enough, but do you have to simply dismiss it out of hand?

2) Character concepts and classes are simplified and restricted in 4.0

Yes, they are. As it stands, the game has some shocking omissions in the range of characters it will support. There are no Bards, Monks, Druids or Barbarians. There is no Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment or Transmutation magic to speak of.

In 4.0 you have the simplicity of pre 3.x classes, along with diverse powers and feats, balanced multiclassing rules and the ability to build diverse class concepts from the core books better than any previous edition.

I didn't say that 4e multiclassing is great on all levels. It is better in practice than any previous edition though. Pre 3.x multiclassing is a joke. 3.x multiclassing is great concept wise, but terrible in practice with the open ended take levels from any class or prestige class. 4.0 multiclassing is swap powers with 1 other class through feats.

With how simple yet flexible class building and multiclassing is in 4.0 it is so far the most elegant design to date. I think it could be cleaned up a bit, but it is a great and fearless direction for WOTC to go and it works for the most part.

Quite simply, I disagree. 4e multiclassing is almost entirely awful. It just about handles "a Rogue with a hint of Fighter" (although such a character will always be sub-optimal), or similar concepts. However, it does not handle an even blending of classes (which means the classic Elven Fighter/Mage that has been a common archetype in every version of D&D I have ever played is just not possible). Sure, they say they're going to support that in the Swordmage, at a cost of a mere $30 for the appropriate book, and the begin of bloating to the ruleset. But then, what about the Cleric/Wizard? The Rogue/Wizard? And all the other combinations?

It also fails to handle a character who starts as "a Rogue with a hint of Fighter" who grows to become "a Fighter with a Roguish past". So, while the game can model both Conan at the start of his career and Conan at the end of his career, there is no way to model the growth from the one to the other.

Multiclassing in D&D just took a massive step backwards.

3) Wizards are no longer D&D wizards.

I was very surprised at how well the 4e Wizard captures the spirit of what has gone before. Although Vancian magic has been greatly reduced, it has not been eliminated totally. So, I agree with you here.

4) The classes all feel the same.

Playing a 3e Fighter felt like playing a 2nd Edition Fighter, which felt like playing a BECM Fighter. Playing a 3e Wizard felt like playing a 2nd Edition Mage, which felt like playing a BECM Magic User. And these two felt distinctly different from one another.

The 4e Fighter does not feel like the 3e Fighter, and the 4e Wizard does not feel like the 3e Wizard (although is less different than I initially thought). Each of these classes feels more like the other than they do their predecessors.

So, yes, I think there is some validity to this comment.

5) Its not D&D, it is more like WOW.

I've never played WoW, so no comment.

6) D&D 4.0 is like a video game and no longer requires a real DM.

I have ran D&D for over 25 years. This is the easiest and most fun verison I have ever ran. I will never go back. DMing 4.0 is like drag and drop, WYSIWYG software with a tad of photoshop elements. It is so easy to tweak modules, monsters and rules. The game systems run in the background easily. Anything I want to do I can easily plop in. AND NO MORE HOURS AND HOURS OF PREP BUILDING MONSTERS AND NPCS!!! I can focus on story and get the monsters customized in short amount of time. It is unreal.

While I disagree with the complaint, I have to ask: what does the second paragraph have to do with the first? As far as I can see, you're talking about the ease of DMing and prep in 4e (which are improved), where the complaint is that the game does not require a DM at all (with which, as I said, I disagree).

I am amazed at how many people are looking to find things wrong with 4e.

Conversely, I'm amazed at the number of people queueing up to tell people that don't like 4e that they are wrong. Why can't people just agree to disagree, and get on with actually playing the game?

 

[Ginnel]

It's too late for an in-depth reply, but I will say this - you may be the first person ever to say 4e multiclassing is great on all levels

PS: Are you aware that this thread will only cause more people to dis-like 4e? Honestly now.

But agreed this thread is not needed, but this goes both ways, there is utterly no need for people to be waving flags above their heads saying

"3.5 is great! down with the not proper D&D 4th and its simplification"

or

"4th is the only real edition now come play it you grognard losers!"

I see both sides as childish and threads which focus on these arguements as needless and even more frustrating is when you see them play out in threads about the new editions mechanics.
e.g

--------------------
Post 1: I've found this, I can't quite understand is Z broken

Post 2: Hmm interesting if you look at Y, Z seems to be in line

Post 3: Bwhahaha 4th ed sucks you could always do Z in 3rd edition hahaha just come and play 3rd edition instead

Post 4: WTF 4th edition is the best evar! nothing is wrong with it and 3rd ed had no merits

Post 5 (more arguement disrupting the discussion)
-------------------

In an ideal world we could all be adults and discuss pro's and con's on current and previous editions and get nice feedback, ah well.