Divination Dilemma

[Shaghayegh]

A single spell, no matter how powerful, is not going to give you a lot of information. Using divination is like hiring a private eye, it takes time and money and a lot of work to slowly gather information that is actually useful. Most of the time the information you glean will have no practical use. That said, IF you are thorough and take time prepare with repeated uses of scrying spells, then yes, you can get the jump on an enemy and defeat the foe's defences. Unless of course he scried you doing that and is on his way to fillet your family...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

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[Trouvere]

I like these sorts of threads. Not this one, the ones in which some very clever people with too much time on their hands explain precisely how a wizard is undefeatable by any means.

I always feel like popping up at the end of the thread to say: "So let me get this straight. Your wizard has no family, friends or indeed any acquaintances at all, lest they be turned against him. His actual body is lying dormant in a private demiplane, he astrally projects everywhere, and so that he can always act in a surprise round he spends every moment of his existence shapechanged into a dire tortoise. Which, let's be clear, has no hands, not much in the way of binocular vision, and eats cactus. And that's his definition of winning?"

 

[Sekhmet]

"Seeing a moving picture in HD isn't exact enough" and other silly thoughts.

At any given moment, you can more or less guarantee that being able to see a livestream of a location will give you enough information to teleport to it.
All that is required is a clear, mental image to teleport.
You want to teleport to that field of grass, so you focus on the picture - how every blade is moving, how the BBEG's footprints leave the blades depressed, that patch of grass that is a little darker green than the rest. That particular glade, at that particular moment, is going to be unique in it's appearance, and if you can't garner enough information in 20 minutes of observing it, you aren't smart enough to be a wizard.

The same thing can be said of the water scenario. Depth of color, varieties in color, frequency and strength of waves, ripples, splashes, and a whole host of other observations will merit a unique location at that point in time.

If he's swimming, you cast Fly, teleport on top of him, and give him the old Shivering Touch, maybe throw a Forcecage around him, use some of those Iron Bands of Bilaro we've been talking about, Wrack, Freeze Armor, or any dozens of ways to immobilize him (remember, saving throws can be more or less negated with a Moment of Prescience) then watch him drown.

If he's sleeping, you just teleport in and let your 2h Fighter CDG him.

There is a rather large list of Save-Or-Suck spells that can target just about any weakness, and more or less guarantee you or your party can end an enemy before it has a chance to recover.

I think the core of the misunderstanding issue is that you haven't ever had a Wizard who knows how to break games on your hands.

 

[Iapetus]

"He's standing in a field of grass, extending 10 feet around him in all directions. It looks like the weather is probably pretty nice, wherever he is."

"He appears to be swimming in a body of water, could be an ocean, or it could be a lake. No way to tell, really, since you can only see 10 feet around him in all directions."

Two extreme examples, certainly, but they serve to illustrate how being able to see 10 feet around the subject in all directions can be anything less than "a clear idea of the location and layout."

Exactly! Something we can agree on! I don't believe that a wizard knowing what the BBEG is wearing (clothes? specifically, a red shirt and black pants?) or what spells he has cast (assuming they have continual visual effects, I guess, or he happens to cast them during the few minutes you happen to be scrying him), or when he happens to be asleep (wait, wait, don't tell me...is it at night? it's at night, isn't it?) is "too much." And apparently Bloodtide doesn't, either.

You and many others do, judging by what I read on the Internet. So we must be playing very different games, I think.

Be that as it may, if well placed, casting prestidigitation can be the best spell until limited wish causing the subject to move into a place that is more identifiable. A resourceful wizard can nearly double the effectiveness of any spell.

 

[Iapetus]

"He's standing in a field of grass, extending 10 feet around him in all directions. It looks like the weather is probably pretty nice, wherever he is."

"He appears to be swimming in a body of water, could be an ocean, or it could be a lake. No way to tell, really, since you can only see 10 feet around him in all directions."

Two extreme examples, certainly, but they serve to illustrate how being able to see 10 feet around the subject in all directions can be anything less than "a clear idea of the location and layout."

I don't believe that a wizard knowing what the BBEG is wearing (clothes? specifically, a red shirt and black pants?) or what spells he has cast (assuming they have continual visual effects, I guess, or he happens to cast them during the few minutes you happen to be scrying him), or when he happens to be asleep (wait, wait, don't tell me...is it at night? it's at night, isn't it?) is "too much." And apparently Bloodtide doesn't, either.

You and many others do, judging by what I read on the Internet. So we must be playing very different games, I think.

Be that as it may, if well placed, casting prestidigitation can be the best spell until limited wish causing the subject to move into a place that is more identifiable. A resourceful wizard can nearly double the effectiveness of any spell.

 

[bloodtide]

If you don't believe that giving a Wizard (or his entire group) the ability to know what the BBEG is wearing, the ability to determine what spells he has cast, and the ability to ambush him in his sleep is "too much", then your game is very different to mine.
At high levels, encounters end in the first few rounds based on save-or-dies or absurdly high damage numbers.
Being prepared and the surprise round are everything.

I'm not sure knowing what the BBEG is wearing is any help. After all you can't tell exactly what he is wearing beyond 'two magic rings'. And you can only see spells with visible effects.

Now your free to ambush the foe in their sleep, assuming they leave themselves wide open for that. And anyone over 6th level or so is just being a fool and making themselves a target if they don't have protections up when they sleep. There are even tons of mundane ways to do it, some stuff that is not covered in the magic rules so a wizard can't counter them.

And even if you can surprise a foe, and get through their defenses and kill them, that does not necessarily get rid of them. They can be brought back to life or such while you are still counting the loot.

But even better is 'the world is bigger then a 10x10 room' idea. So say you do teleport in and kill Bok in his sleep. Well, only six others were scrying on him at that time and saw you do it....and they can then surprise you.


1.Big Question-If you were the DM of a game where the group did scry and die type things to defeat every foe, how would you award experience? Would the group get normal experience? Would you give them bonus XP for being 'so clever and smart'? Would you consider attacking and killing a CR20 foe in their sleep in one round a 'challenge' ? Does the planed 'sneak attack' count as a challenge to the characters? Would you count attacking a foe in their sleep and making the encounter 'much more easy then normal?

2.If your group did do ,scry and die in your sleep, would you think it's fair to have foes do it to them? Would you have a 'fun' game where the unprepared characters (and players) got attacked by fully armed foes? Or would you just handwave that as 'not happening' as it's 'not fair and no fun'?

And the original question still stands: what divination tells you 'all about a foe'?

 

[Crothian]

1.Big Question-If you were the DM of a game where the group did scry and die type things to defeat every foe, how would you award experience? Would the group get normal experience? Would you give them bonus XP for being 'so clever and smart'? Would you consider attacking and killing a CR20 foe in their sleep in one round a 'challenge' ? Does the planed 'sneak attack' count as a challenge to the characters? Would you count attacking a foe in their sleep and making the encounter 'much more easy then normal?

They'd get XP but not as much. The thing is it is not clever. It's an idea they read on the net an didn't even come up with themselves. It's like those players that steal build ideas from the net. I don't give them rewards for copy off of other players. It is not a challenge and when the villains get wise to this method and start operating counter measures the players whine.

2.If your group did do ,scry and die in your sleep, would you think it's fair to have foes do it to them? Would you have a 'fun' game where the unprepared characters (and players) got attacked by fully armed foes? Or would you just handwave that as 'not happening' as it's 'not fair and no fun'?

It happens. I told my players flat out if they want to use these type of tactics then they can expect them to be used against them. It drastically alters the game and frankly I don't find it as fun.

And the original question still stands: what divination tells you 'all about a foe'?

There isn't any. The most powerful divination spells still require the DM to decide what info the players learn so the DM can always misinform and trick the players with information that is not always as it seems.

 

[The Red King]

If this came up im my campaign, a few things would happen:

The "target" would have at least a few traps/protections set up for this type of thing.

The local assasins guild would say something like "YES! we need to add this type of thing to our bag of tricks!"

The PC's had better get themselves some good protection, because the target's friends/brother/employers will be wanting to get revenge and make an example of them.

 

[The Red King]

I'm not sure knowing what the BBEG is wearing is any help. After all you can't tell exactly what he is wearing beyond 'two magic rings'. And you can only see spells with visible effects.

Now your free to ambush the foe in their sleep, assuming they leave themselves wide open for that. And anyone over 6th level or so is just being a fool and making themselves a target if they don't have protections up when they sleep. There are even tons of mundane ways to do it, some stuff that is not covered in the magic rules so a wizard can't counter them.

And even if you can surprise a foe, and get through their defenses and kill them, that does not necessarily get rid of them. They can be brought back to life or such while you are still counting the loot.

But even better is 'the world is bigger then a 10x10 room' idea. So say you do teleport in and kill Bok in his sleep. Well, only six others were scrying on him at that time and saw you do it....and they can then surprise you.


1.Big Question-If you were the DM of a game where the group did scry and die type things to defeat every foe, how would you award experience? Would the group get normal experience? Would you give them bonus XP for being 'so clever and smart'? Would you consider attacking and killing a CR20 foe in their sleep in one round a 'challenge' ? Does the planed 'sneak attack' count as a challenge to the characters? Would you count attacking a foe in their sleep and making the encounter 'much more easy then normal?

2.If your group did do ,scry and die in your sleep, would you think it's fair to have foes do it to them? Would you have a 'fun' game where the unprepared characters (and players) got attacked by fully armed foes? Or would you just handwave that as 'not happening' as it's 'not fair and no fun'?

And the original question still stands: what divination tells you 'all about a foe'?

Knowing that he ISNT wearing that protection from missiles amulet, and that he just too off the ring of spell turning and the Prot+3 ring certianly makes him an easier target. So knowing what he is or isnt wearing can make a big difference. Especially if he takes them off and then goes outside.