Divine Haste?

[Ridley's Cohort]

This feat as written seems reasonable to me.

I play a Paladin with Divine Might, and this feat is inferior for typical paladin builds. The extra movement in a pinch is nice, but you are not getting the massive Divine Might synergy with mounted charges.

Another offensive option is nice for a paladin, but the very defensive prereq means that making a smackdown quality build will be extremely difficult.

This feat would be dangerous in the hands of a Cleric1/FighterX.

 

[hazmat]

I think 2 turn attempts for 1 round of haste is fair. I'd at least double the turns required if you wanted a round per charisma bonus.

Does anyone else here think that turning is the most versatile of class features our side of spell casting?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Does anyone else here think that turning is the most versatile of class features our side of spell casting?

On paper it is an interesting and flexible mechanic, but in practice it does not work out that way.

First of all, the majority of the divine feats are highly Cha dependent and therefore outright suck unless you have a 16+ Cha.

Second of all, many of the more interesting choices require an action to activate and are of short duration. Such effects must be very good to justify spending a feat on because they must offer significant greater benefit than standard cheap buffs (e.g. Bless, Bull's Strength, etc.)

Third of all, if you get more than one divine feat and actually get good use out of them, you will risk running out of turning attempts per day. So there is an implicit prereq of either a sky high Cha or Extra Turning if you intend to rely on this feats.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

3.5 haste no longer grant an extra action.

Sorry, I just assumed that someone wanting a haste effect would be gunning for the 3.0 version, especially if they're making it up from scratch.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I play a Paladin with Divine Might, and this feat is inferior for typical paladin builds. The extra movement in a pinch is nice, but you are not getting the massive Divine Might synergy with mounted charges.

I'm not understanding this part; are you saying that dm is inferior or the proposed feat? My experience with dm is that it made paladins without it look weak.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I'm not understanding this part; are you saying that dm is inferior or the proposed feat? My experience with dm is that it made paladins without it look weak.

My apologies for being unclear. Divine Haste would be a significantly inferior choice when compared to Divine Might for most Paladins. Therefore I do not think this feat is too powerful, and would be reasonable to add to the game without alteration.

 

[SidusLupus]

I'm the dm in question in this game, and I have reservations on allowing this kind of feat.

+1 atk to all attacks, and 1 extra at highest bab seems pretty good compared to divine might. Perhaps I'm being paranoid but I'm not sure.

Consider a 2 weapon fighting paladin with this versus a sword and board paladin using divine might.

High charisma seemingly makes divine might better, but with low charisma, this divine haste is much better from what I figure.

Could someone perhaps run the numbers on some theoretical ACs?

Edit: Would allowing Divine might without power attack as a requirement be overpowered?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

This is all courtesy of Nail for his expected AC by level & average damage formulae.

Scenario: 2 paladins with S&B fighting style at level 6; both have a base 14 str, 16 cha (improved at 4th level), weapon focus, +1 longsword. One has divine might & the other divine haste, & both are trying to hit AC 18 with their +10/+5.

Layout is the following: A = P{D[1+Pc(Mc-1)] + Db}
For bonus critical dice I insert: +Bd[Pc(Mc-1)] after the Db & before the closing }
If the chance to hit is different to the chance to confirm the critical use: A = P{D[1+(Pt/P)Pc(M-1)]+Db}

where
A = average damage per attack
P = Probability to hit, as a fraction
D = average weapon damage plus Str, Magic, etc
Pc = Probability to Threaten, as a fraction
Mc= Critical Multiplier
Db = Bonus Damage dice that are not multiplied by a confirmed critical
Bd = Bonus die average damage that only occurs on confirmed criticals

Vanilla Longsword
5.3625= 0.65{7.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
3.3= 0.40{7.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
8.6625

Divine might Longsword
7.5075= 0.65{10.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
4.62= 0.40{10.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
12.1275

Divine haste Longsword
5.775= 0.70{7.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
5.775= 0.70{7.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
3.7125= 0.45{7.5[1+0.1(2-1)]}
15.2625

 

[Scion]

so early on, with a lower cha bonus, the haste is better.

Later on, with a higher cha bonus, the might would be better.

However, the haste one doesnt stack with actual haste, which is not terribly difficult to get.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I wouldn't look at the specific scores but rather how players will naturally assign them for greatest benefit. As presented the divine haste encourages a better str over cha build; it encourages the maximization of developments in str, a decent secondary cha, & picking up the extra turning feat to supply plenty of hasted rounds. It delivers a hefty benefit as a free action, something which the haste spell can't do unless quickened to a 7th level slot, albeit affecting the whole party.

Ok, I'm a self confessed conservative dm, at the slightest concern I slam the brakes; however something here has got me thinking of power creep.