Divine Metamagic Feat

[Psiblade]

Hello Zaruthustran,
A good place to pick up the rulings from the circle is http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html
. The Pale site keeps up to date pretty with the circle.

(Psi)SeveredHead there are many ways to break characters. This character build places too much emphasis on particular area to be effective in a large number of situations. Simple immunities or SR will make them very ineffective. If your campaigns features a large majority of opponents without those abilities then yes this feat can be overpowering. In a campaign with a majority of monsters with those abilities this character would be very ineffective. High level monsters and casters tend to have those abilities.

I do not like breaking the meta-magic cap, so Nail's houserule is what I would use in a campaign. I would still not take this feat because you have to put too much emphasis in one area.

A cloak of chr +6 is definitely nice for paladins, sorcs, bards, but just not that great for clerics. I would rather have displacement, flying, protection, etc. I prefer that my characters live to see the next day, so my favorite is the cloak of protection. Different people have different emphasis on characters.

Rushlight, if you feel the need to resort to personal attacks when discussing an argument, I guess there is nothing more to discuss. You had already made up your mind before posting. I personally like to game with people who are open minded and fun.

-Psiblade

 

[rushlight]

(Psi)SeveredHead there are many ways to break characters. This character build places too much emphasis on particular area to be effective in a large number of situations. Simple immunities or SR will make them very ineffective. If your campaigns features a large majority of opponents without those abilities then yes this feat can be overpowering. In a campaign with a majority of monsters with those abilities this character would be very ineffective. High level monsters and casters tend to have those abilities.

Again, a single feat, perhaps combined with a single item (if your original CHA isn't high enough) is not exclusive of other options. That's like saying, "well, the wizard took Craft Arms and Armor, and now has a +4 magic Staff - man he's gonna be one useless wizard now..." A cleric with this feat will do just as well at combat - and even better at social interactions - than a cleric without this feat. What, you only let your players have a single feat in your games? Why can't a cleric take Divine Metamagic and Spell Penetration? Or are you saying that a cleric can only take very specific feats to be useful, and if he takes even a single feat outside of your proscribed "acceptable feat list" then he's useless? I disagree with that implication.

A cloak of chr +6 is definitely nice for paladins, sorcs, bards, but just not that great for clerics. I would rather have displacement, flying, protection, etc. I prefer that my characters live to see the next day, so my favorite is the cloak of protection. Different people have different emphasis on characters.

Ahh. Your favorite is the cloak of protection. We're talking about the game balance effects of a feat - personal favortism doesn't enter into the equation. Personally, I wouldn't take metamagic feats at all - but their game balance must be judged from a neutral perspective. Is the feat Divine Metamagic abusable? Yes - dramatically so. Can it be easily fixed? No - it is fundamentally broken (because it replaces a non-valuable ability with a valuable, rare ability).

Rushlight, if you feel the need to resort to personal attacks when discussing an argument, I guess there is nothing more to discuss. You had already made up your mind before posting. I personally like to game with people who are open minded and fun.

I never personally attacked anyone - I only pointed out your apparent playstyle differs from mine - and that I don't prefer to game with people who enjoy your apparent playstyle. Go back and read what I posted - I even encouraged you to keep having fun and playing the game. It's nothing personal - how could it be? We've never met.

 

[Piratecat]

EN World is a lot like being a guest at a big party over at Morrus' house. Part of the social contract in such a place is that you try not to be purposefully rude to other guests. Something about them drives you nuts? Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

It's certainly not against the rules to point out differences in playing styles, but there's a polite and a rude way to do so. Best to err on the side of caution, and best not to take things personally when people make such judgments about you.

 

[Darklone]

Hopefully without pouring more oil into the flames:
I'm annoyed about this feat cause it gives the already strong clerics yet another big boost of nearly spontaneous metamagic. It might have it's drawbacks, it might be expensive, but it's STRONG.

 

[Marshall]

That 10th level cleric can cast a Maximized Flame Strike for 60 points of damage! Twice! That might not sound like much, until you consider that for a normal cleric to do this he needs to be 16th level.

No he doesnt.
This is the falacy of the metamagic cap. A 10th level CLR without DMM just needs to roll well to get the exact same effect.

So you don't consider a single feat that gives you 6 effective levels of spell casting to be unbalanced?!?!?!

If I see one, I'll comment on it then. This isnt it. You dont have the higher spell levels(Its still just Flame Strike, 6 effective levels would get you Firestorm) and you dont have the higher CL. You are seriously overstating the effects.

 

[Darklone]

So "free" metamagic is not strong in your mind? Being able to cast any spell Silent on the fly?

 

[rushlight]

No he doesnt.
This is the falacy of the metamagic cap. A 10th level CLR without DMM just needs to roll well to get the exact same effect.

So you often see someone roll 10d6 and get all 6s? I need you rolling my stats...

You can't maximize a Flamestrike unless you are 16th level. That's in the core rules. This feat as printed in CD allows a 10th level caster to maxaimize a Flamestrike. That's 6 levels of difference.

Without the million-to-one chance of rolling all 6s with ten dice.

 

[The Souljourner]

Personally, I think it's much more broken with persistant spell than maximize (but that's the fault of persistant). Sure, it's 7 turn attempts, but it changes all those useful spells from a round or a min per level to all day. Maximize gives +25 points of damage on average to one spell, or 12 damage if they make their save. Big deal. And don't forget... that's 3 feats, all so you can maximize two spells per day for free? Whatever. Quicken is almost always going to be better, if number of spells per day isn't a problem - sure it's an extra turn attempt, but two flamestrikes is 70 damage, and you can spread them out if you want.

And anyone mentioning silent spell with this feat obviously plays in a vastly different campaign than I've ever played in. I've *never* known anyone to use silent spell *at all*... and to waste a feat on it and a feat on divine metamagic so you can do it on a whim? Feh. Go for it.

I'm actually creating a 6th level cleric who *already* has to take extra turning (going radiant servant of pelor), and I *still* don't want to take Divine Metamagic, because I don't want to have to spend two feats to do one useful thing. Instead of Divine Metamagic and a metamagic feat, I'll take augment healing and divine spell power. Divine spell power is a heck of a lot more efficient, is useful for a lot more spells, and only requires a single feat.

In case you can't tell.. we don't use a lot of metamagic in my campaigns.... I find that until you hit 13th+ level.... not much metamagic gets thrown around... and even at that level, it's usually just empower.

-The Souljourner

 

[James McMurray]

This is the falacy of the metamagic cap. A 10th level CLR without DMM just needs to roll well to get the exact same effect.

LOL! Yeah, I suppose that's technically true.

Man do I miss that rolleyes smiley.

 

[Bauglir]

No he doesnt.
This is the falacy of the metamagic cap. A 10th level CLR without DMM just needs to roll well to get the exact same effect.

So a one in 60,466,176 chance is all the cleric needs to beat to be on par with DMM.

No problem!