Divine Spell List

So far it seems like that Cleric is the big winner here getting Spells like Find Steed and smites, but what does the Paladin get out of the deal? What Spells does the Paladin gain (assuming the Paladin is still a half caster).

This spell list actually changes Clerics a lot because of the merged in Paladin Spells.
 

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The paladin is kind of a mystery. The group description is "focusing on healing, utility, and defense", which is more 4e paladin (which I believe had the defender role) than paladins in other editions ([including 5e] which were more warrior-like: Masters of combat who can deal and endure many wounds). That makes me think they might be experiencing a greater redesign than other classes (I am kind of wondering if monks will also get a big redesign to make them more in line with fighters and barbarians).
 

The paladin is kind of a mystery. The group description is "focusing on healing, utility, and defense", which is more 4e paladin (which I believe had the defender role) than paladins in other editions ([including 5e] which were more warrior-like: Masters of combat who can deal and endure many wounds). That makes me think they might be experiencing a greater redesign than other classes (I am kind of wondering if monks will also get a big redesign to make them more in line with fighters and barbarians).

The Paladin still seems to have access to the Smites spells, although so does the cleric now. Honestly the Divine Spell List seems the most improved, which I think is a good thing.
 

I am sure paladins will still be smiting, but it will be a little weird if, on a long day, clerics are smiting (via spells) long after paladins have run out.
If it was up to me, I think I would power up the paladin's auras (to maximize "utility and defense"), maybe balancing it out with you need to be able to see the paladin to get the benefit of the aura. That would make paladins better as "bright, shiny beacons of " whatever the paladin's oath is about. It fits the charisma thing and makes paladins stand out from melee clerics.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I am sure paladins will still be smiting, but it will be a little weird if, on a long day, clerics are smiting (via spells) long after paladins have run out.
If it was up to me, I think I would power up the paladin's auras (to maximize "utility and defense"), maybe balancing it out with you need to be able to see the paladin to get the benefit of the aura. That would make paladins better as "bright, shiny beacons of " whatever the paladin's oath is about. It fits the charisma thing and makes paladins stand out from melee clerics.
Honestly, the clerics could use a bit more offensive oomph. I am so tired of every cleric under the sun using spirtual weapon and spirit guardians just to be combat competitive. So giving them smite options I am good with.
 

I am sure paladins will still be smiting, but it will be a little weird if, on a long day, clerics are smiting (via spells) long after paladins have run out.
If it was up to me, I think I would power up the paladin's auras (to maximize "utility and defense"), maybe balancing it out with you need to be able to see the paladin to get the benefit of the aura. That would make paladins better as "bright, shiny beacons of " whatever the paladin's oath is about. It fits the charisma thing and makes paladins stand out from melee clerics.

Depending on Domain that could already happen in 5e, so could Bards and Sorcidins, etc...
 


Branduil

Adventurer
Paladins will probably have some kind of class buff to the Smite spell in the same way as Rangers with Hunter's Mark.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I'm not on board anymore with 5.5e and this change only confirms it. I am a huge fan of giving MORE identity to each class through access to unique things. I understand the benefit of fewer shared spell lists instead of class specific lists (especially if you end up with some class lists that are still almost the same like wizard and sorcerer) but smites and auras are such a distinguishing feature of paladins that making them available to other classes is really a mistake. This will just please people who hate paladins for other reasons (like the already long-lost alignment railroad) because it just leads to more cleric PCs and less paladin PCs. Being "a cleric with a bit more weapons" does not justify a full class. If you really want three large spells lists instead of class-based spells lists, it would be better to remove smites as spells from the game and turn them into Paladin class features.
 

Paladins will probably see a good deal of change if they attempt to standardize the subclass levels for everyone in the group. They're the only class with a level 20 subclass feature and we know that's epic boons now. Level 18 is a class wide capstone going by the expert UA so either their final subclass feature is dropped to level 17 (Clerics already do this but Druid subclasses max at level 14 so something has to give) or they will have to rewrite stuff.

On the flip side Paladins get their first subclass feature at level 3 while Druids are 2 and Clerics get theirs at 1. I already made my guesses as to which levels will get subclass features in the UA Groups: Expert, Mage, Priest, Warrior thread. TLDR I think this group goes 2, 6, 10, 17. But it will require a lot of moving features around and potentially new ones to fill in empty levels.
 

Do we have any statement or mechanic that says a class has access to all of the similarly tagged spells?

There's something like that with bards, but their schtick is now, apparently, magical Jacks.
 

cbwjm

Legend
I quite like the thought of clerics also having access to smite spells a cleric smiting their enemies did with my idea of them and they'll probably also get a bit more use out of them. I've hardly ever seen paladins use them, they normally save their slots for their class smite ability.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm not on board anymore with 5.5e and this change only confirms it. I am a huge fan of giving MORE identity to each class through access to unique things. I understand the benefit of fewer shared spell lists instead of class specific lists (especially if you end up with some class lists that are still almost the same like wizard and sorcerer) but smites and auras are such a distinguishing feature of paladins that making them available to other classes is really a mistake.
Conceptually I understand what you're going with here and I agree to a certain extent... but the biggest issue I see with this specific case is that I've always gotten the impression over the last 8 years that the smite spells are like some of the least used spells of the paladin, even though they were class specific. Because paladins could just do regular divine smites for more damage, they never really seemed to bother with the spell versions (even though they gave little extra boosts the regular divine smite didn't.) So these spells no longer being paladin-specific is no real loss as they weren't being cast anyway.

At least by giving the smite spells to the clerics (and presumably the druids)... we might actually see these spells get used by the weapon users of these classes.
 

Sir Brennen

Legend
I'm not on board anymore with 5.5e and this change only confirms it.
But this change itself isn't confirmed. It's still a playtest, and they're throwing a few things out there that they know will probably get rejected.

Don't like the change? Fine. Let them know with your feedback.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
But this change itself isn't confirmed. It's still a playtest, and they're throwing a few things out there that they know will probably get rejected.

Don't like the change? Fine. Let them know with your feedback.
I know, I know... but there are already many changes pretty much decided (we've seen them in Tasha and settings books) which are only going to make my game worse, so I don't think it's worth giving them my feedback anymore. It would only spoil the results for those who do want a new edition.
 

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