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EN World - Morrus' D&D / d20 News & Reviews Site > Gaming Action > Living EN World > DM credits
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rln02-16-06, 09:46 AM
(This proposal was inspired by the Job System Redux (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167413) Proposal thread)
Some argue that DMing is a reward in itself. While that may be true or not, I think that adding a small perk for those willing to DM could increase the amount of DM's willing to propose and run an adventure.
While the rules below mention only adventuring, Judges may assign other uses of DM credits as well - such as an award per month for playing Joe in the RDI, one time rewards for thread compilation, offer a 50% bonus to anyone willing to run a level 1 adventure if there are a lot of new players in the RDI, and so on...
Fourth& Current Proposal:
After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure. A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall". Credits spent must be approved by a Judge, either in the General thread or at the end of the adventure thread where he gained the credits. DM credits should be documented similar to XP.
Credits can normally only be spent on a PC that is not on an adventure. Players on an adventure can petition their DM to allow using DM credits but he has no obligation to allow its use. Even if he allows it, he may limit spending as he sees fit. Also, spending must still be approved by a judge (see above).
DM credits spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains 50 XP per ECL per DM credit spent. If applied to a new character, you can start that character at a higher level with all benefits (ie more starting treasure, use a LA race/template and so on).
Money - the PC gains 50 GP per ECL per DM credit
Craft points - the PC gains 25 CP per ECL per DM credit
Rewards are limited to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 400XP, 400 GP or 200 CP by one DM credit.
Special considerations:
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification gets no reward for that adventure. If a DM quits an adventure prematurely but gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) she receives full credit up until the point she quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point on in time. If an adventure ends due to player dropout, the DM gets full credit.
As there are some long-running adventures in LEW, the DMs of these can petition the judge to award credits during the course of the adventure, typically at the same time as XP is given to the players.
Adventures running in parallell will all yield DM credits.
Implementation: This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon again, to see if it should be made permanent, if something should be changed or if it should be removed. If removed, currently running games immediately generate DM credits as if it was ended. These (and previously saved credits) may be spent be spent according to these rules, but no more credits are gained after the system is removed.
Third Proposal:
After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure. Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall". Credits spent must be approved by a Judge, either in the General thread or at the end of the adventure thread where he gained the credits. DM credits should be documented similar to XP.
Credit can normally only be spent while not on an adventure. Players on an adventure can petition their DM to allow using DM credits but he has no obligation to allow its use. Even if he allows it, he may limit spending as he sees fit. Also, spending must still be approved by a judge (see above).
DM credits spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains 25 XP per ECL per DM credit spent.
Money - the PC gains 50 GP per ECL per DM credit
Craft points - the PC gains 5 CP per ECL per DM credit
Starting a new character - When starting a new character, each 40 DM credits means you can start at a higher ECL with all benefits.
Point rewards is limted to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 200XP, 400 GP or 400 CP by one DM credit. Also, when spending DM credits for XP or starting a new character, you can never exceed the experience of the highest PC in LEW.
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification gets no reward for that adventure. If a DM quits an adventure prematurely but gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) she receives full credit up until the point she quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point on in time. If an adventure ends due to player dropout, the DM gets full credit.
Implementation: This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon again, to see if it should be made permanent, if something should be changed or if it should be removed. If removed, currently running games immediately generate DM credits as if it was ended. These (and previously saved credits) may be spent be spent according to these rules, but no more credits are gained after the system is removed.
Second Proposal: After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc). It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall".
1 DM credit spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure. If applied to a new character and it would bring the character up a level, that character can start at the higher level (or with a Level Adjusted race or template) with all benefits.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.
Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.
A DM which abandons an adventure gets no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure. A DM that quits an adventure gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) should receive full credit up until the point he quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point.
This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon, to see if it should be made permanent or removed.
First Proposal:After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc).
1 DM credit spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - each credit spent gives the PC X craft points per character level.
The judge for the adventure is the final call on the reward allocation. Player satisfaction and DM activity should infuence the decision. Time may be deducted for long periods of idle time, DM's doing an extraordinary job could get a 25% reward and so on.
A DM which abandons an adventure should get no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure.
To make implementation easy, this applies to currently running adventures as well, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
----
I looked at the Treasure Table in the DMG when deciding the amount of gold gained. 20 DM credits will give a level 1 character 1000 XP or 1000 GP. For characters over level 5, the gold reward declines compared to XP reward.
I know too little about craft points to suggest a suitable reward, but I hope that Bront or someone else that knows it inside & out can suggest a value for X.
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GnomeWorks02-16-06, 02:53 PM
While I am all for encouraging new DMs to come to LEW, I have serious issues with the metagame-ness of this proposal.
I admit that LEW has a flood of players and a drought of DMs, but I think we need to find other ways to bring in DMs.
While I won't throw in my official vote (as I'd like to see some discussion first), I'm going to say right now that I am most definitely leaning strongly towards a "no," unless someone can convince me otherwise.
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rln02-16-06, 03:18 PM
Since the reward only happens when a character is in between adventures, I do not see the metagaming issue as a big one. The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 03:27 PM
Since the reward only happens when a character is in between adventures, I do not see the metagaming issue as a big one. The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
indeed, its important to remember that you can gain XP for encounters and challanges so far below your CR that you are in no real danger. While these would make a boring adventure, I would have no problem explaining "extra" XP for any of my characters, whether it be the bard/ranger "private investigator" having tracked and rescued a small child lost in the woods, the gladiator wanna-be sparring with locals on a wager or the clerical do gooder risking her health to help curtail a possible plague brought into the dock quarter by a returning sailor.
Think of it like the begining of the Indiana Jones movies, where he is finishing up an adventure that wasn't quite interesting enough to be a movie before this "real" one begins.
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El Jefe02-16-06, 08:26 PM
While I am all for encouraging new DMs to come to LEW, I have serious issues with the metagame-ness of this proposal.Ok, how about a counterproposal?
Metagame problem = Metagame solution
Individuals may have 3 active PCs at any one time in LEW. Additional characters may not be introduced unless one of the 3 dies or is permanently retired. Active DM's may introduce a 4th character, but that character may only earn XP while the DM is actively running another game. Of course, none of a DM's characters may earn XP for participating in the DM's game.
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 08:35 PM
Ok, how about a counterproposal?
Metagame problem = Metagame solution
Individuals may have 3 active PCs at any one time in LEW. Additional characters may not be introduced unless one of the 3 dies or is permanently retired. Active DM's may introduce a 4th character, but that character may only earn XP while the DM is actively running another game. Of course, none of a DM's characters may earn XP for participating in the DM's game.
eh, the problem is that by choosing to take the time to run a game, I'm taking time away from being able to actively pursue my existing characters' developments. At one point I was runnign three adventures at once and besides burning out, certainly couldn't also kep all my PCs active. The orriginal proposal would highly encourage me to run more adventures and use my DMing credits to (for example) bring Kirin up to the level where she could pursue her new calling as a lycanthrope/Feral hunter/healer rather than mechanically running her through adventures of little real interest to that character just for the xp. Win/win. At this point the privilege of trying to introduce another character while running adventures would hold little interest.
A compromise perhaps, that the DM could only apply his or her credits to a character by writing a short account of the activities which earned the gold/xp/etc and contributes to the background flavor of the living world?
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Knight Otu02-16-06, 08:46 PM
Plus, not everyone has three characters. Allowing a 4th character does nothing to encourage players with one or two characters to DM - and those would likely have more time to do so.
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Rae ArdGaoth02-16-06, 08:56 PM
I think it's a nice idea to reward DMs somehow, but I agree with GW: it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
I think DMs should be rewarded, but the argument to "attract" DMs doesn't really hold. Sure, I DMed a game, and sure, if there was a reward, I'd take it. But the type of DMs "attracted" by the reward would just be throwing a game together. And the reward itself isn't that huge. A few hundred XP. Not a great incentive, but possibly an appropriate sized reward.
That being said, my opinion doesn't change. DMs definitely shouldn't get an in-game reward for DMing. And I can't really think of an out-of-game reward.
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DerHauptman02-16-06, 08:59 PM
I for one think this is a great I idea, it rewards the stewards of the games and will encourage people to DM all round.
Agreed though that bad DM's might just try and wing something to get stuff for a character but bad games can happen anyways so its not too much risk.
I was thinking about making something instead of sitting arround but wanna play here in a game first. Where are the rules for submission of a vignetee or adventure? I think I saw them somewhere?
DerHauptman - Out!
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Knight Otu02-16-06, 09:10 PM
That would be this thread.
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 09:16 PM
I think it's a nice idea to reward DMs somehow, but I agree with GW: it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
you only get your XP if you are there playing your character, you can't just give it to a DM to npc in his adventure and take your leveled up PC after. So ALL in game rewards are for real world activities - posting and contributing to the game.
There are plenty of pen and paper groups with rotating DM duties where the PC of the current DM gets half XP or other bonuses for when they come back. So I think the assertion that such a scenerio "has no place" is innapropriate to a useful discussion.
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Manzanita02-16-06, 10:01 PM
I must admit I find this idea intriguing. There are a lot of us who DM, and all DMs have PCs, so we'd see frequent rewards off this proposal. I think rln and KB have offered good explanations of where those rewards would come from. It might be nice to be able to develop your PC in that way. It would encourage you to enrich your PC by adding forgotten aunts and non-DMed side quests.
As for fulfilling its stated goal of attracting DMs, I'm uncertain. Most of us DM for pleasure, but perhaps a little carrot like this would encourage someone to try DMing, who would otherwise feel intimidated.
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Rystil Arden02-16-06, 10:04 PM
It would encourage you to enrich your PC by adding forgotten aunts and non-DMed side quests.
That would actually be a really neat idea. So to take Zaeryl as a random example, Zaeryl is trying to awaken his innate power and shape his mortal form to withstand it. This would allow me to add in a little backstory about him awakening more power throguh some sort of action or exploration without forcing a GM to run a game about that.
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Roger02-16-06, 11:08 PM
it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
By the by, that's exactly how the current XP reward for real-world months of game play works.
Cheers,
Roger
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doghead02-17-06, 12:41 AM
Initially I was a little sceptical of the idea. The whole in game rewards for real life activity thing didn't sit well. The idea of Jaan just jumping a level (assuming that he wass close enough to do so) seemed odd if not tied to some in game events.
The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
This makes sense. I actually had Jaan travelling back to Rivenblight in search of his lost companions. It was really only a time filler to explain his non-adventuring. But rln is right, between adventures, things can happen.
The idea of being allowed a forth character doesn't really appeal to me. I have only one, and if I am DM'ing, I don't really have time or desire to take on another, let alone three. If I wasn't running an adventure, running another couple of characters would be no problem.
The idea is starting to appeal, and ideas about what Jaan could do between adventures are starting to come to me.
Two questions.
Who would oversee the between adventure bonus activity (perhaps we need a better term for this). Several options come to mind; the judge oversseing the DM's adventure, the judge oversseeing the character's last adventure, or Bront as RDI and between adventure monitor.
For those LEWians who are not running an adventure, would something along these lines encourage you to do so?
thotd
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Jdvn102-17-06, 12:50 AM
I wonder if this proposal would actually result in more GMs. I, for one, would not be more inclined to run a game were this passed.
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doghead02-17-06, 02:19 AM
I can't really say how this would have affected my decision to run an adventure.
But personally, given Jaan's painfully slow progress (his first two adventures died), it would be nice to think that by running a lively game, I can also do something towards edging Jaan onwards towards new things like Turn Undead and Spells.
thotd
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Salix02-17-06, 02:20 AM
I thought I would chime in on this thread. I have been putting together (slowly) a short vignette ever since my character was approved and I saw the big glut of PCs in the RDI. I originally had no intention of running a game, but it seems like there are a lot of new people just waiting around. I thought maybe I could get four of them out the door. When I came to this conclusion I realized that I wouldn't get to start playing my second character until the vignette was over. I don't think this would attract me to trying to DM. I do think the rewards are pretty attractive for someone who doesn't run a lot of characters and wants to bring one in at a higher level. I noticed a lot of the other adventures ran on ENworld start with characters being generated above 1st level. Many of our characters backgrounds suggest they should start above 1st level also. In general, I don't think this is such a bad idea, but I'm not sure if it will result in more DMs. I think that the people who do DM a lot will get rewarded for it a little more. Maybe we'd see more PrCs sooner.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 02:27 AM
I do think the rewards are pretty attractive for someone who doesn't run a lot of characters and wants to bring one in at a higher level. I noticed a lot of the other adventures ran on ENworld start with characters being generated above 1st level. Many of our characters backgrounds suggest they should start above 1st level also.
That's actually rather brilliant--it is a much more elegant way to handle someone who wants to play a character with a lewvel adjustment than the current system of 'Make a dummy character -> Retire -> Make the LA character'
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Jdvn102-17-06, 02:30 AM
I can't really say how this would have affected my decision to run an adventure. Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 03:09 AM
Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?actually, this would strongly encourage me to run more adventures (even go back to a couple at a time) rather than stop after my current one ends, so I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:18 AM
I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.Possibly so, but I we can't just assume that this will attract GMs. Maybe if we had a poll or just had people post whether or not this would attract them to GM or not. Let's find out if this actually would fulfill it's stated purpose.
If it doesn't, then why would we do it at all? I think that's an important question to discuss.
If the proposer wants to propose some other purpose, that's fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 03:22 AM
It might be worth dealing with DMs running more than one adventure simutaneously. Based on the premise of the proposal, said DM should accrue 'DM points' for each adventure run. But could all these be used on the same PC? Should multiple DM runs be restricted to multiple PCs? And just how many games is Rystil running now anyway?
Rystil's point about using these XPs to start a LA PC is a good one, I think. DM points should be adjudicated by the judge on said DM's adventure, I would think. And I think it should be pretty straightforward. As long as the DM posts in a month, he/she would get the point, like how it is with 'time spent' awards for PCs. I'm opposed to giving the judge arbitrary control of how many DM points are awarded. I think that would impose undue stress on the DM/Judge relationship.
It is an interesting proposal, and has received no 'yes' votes thus far. I think its good to leave it up awhile and get some more feedback.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 03:25 AM
And just how many games is Rystil running now anyway? I can answer this one: I'm technically running two adventures now
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:37 AM
A DM which abandons an adventure should get no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure.What about a DM whose players abandon an adventure? What about a DM that posts 1/week? Should he get less than a DM who posts 4/day? Else, wouldn't you encourage DMs to slow the pace of their games? What's the minimum he'd have to post in month? Would a minimum post rate encourage throw-away posts?
Should you encourage levelling a character who hasn't been on any adventures?
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 03:39 AM
What about a DM whose players abandon an adventure? What about a DM that posts 1/week? Should he get less than a DM who posts 4/day? Else, wouldn't you encourage DMs to slow the pace of their games?
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:40 AM
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.Which seems like a problem to me.
Note the edit.
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Erekose1302-17-06, 03:57 AM
I am with KB on this one, I think that I'd like some small reward for spending far more time Dming than playing (thats why I play 8-10 characters at a time, but only run 1 game) might be a good insentive to keep at it . Not that I'd be put off running games if this proposal was not accepted, I do enjoy it.
But yes, a system would have to be in place that would allow the judges to easily allocate these rewards so that DMs can't cry foul. Perhaps a minor formula that involves post counts on a DMs thread. I use something similar in giving players rping experience in my game (not that my players have seen it yet cause they havent rested once).
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 04:19 AM
In my mind, there are two questions to be answered:
1. Will this proposal increase the number of DMs?
I do not see how this proposal could keep people from DMing. KB has already said that she would be more likely to DM and DM more adventures with a system like this in place. X+1 > X so that works for me. I think I would be somewhat more likely to continue DMing with this in place, so make it X+1.5 > X.
2. Is this proposal "fair"?
This is a question of what gives a player the "right" to have a high level PC in Enworld. Currently that "right" is only given to players who have participated in lots of adventures. Personally, I think that if a person has been an active member of LEW and successfully runs several adventures much to the delight of many players, that gives them as much "right" to a high level PC as a player has for participating in several adventures. In fact in my mind, it gives them more "right" to it. For example, Patlin and I started at about the same time. He has run 5+ excellent adventures, and largely because of his efforts I have a 4th level PC. His highest PC, Tor, is 3rd level. If his character was given a credit for his DM/judging duties and that bumped Tor up to 5th level and closer the Dragon Desciple class he was created for, that would be just fine with me. I don't "deserve" to have a higher level character than Patlin. Similarly, if somone wants to DM for the next 5 years and then introduce a brand new minotaur PC with an ECL of 10, that's perfectly fine with me. In my mind, they've earned it.
Defining what gives a player the "right" to a high level PC is a community decision. There is no "right" answer. If it makes most people uncomfortable then I say leave it. If most people are fine with it, I know it will increase the future DM pool by at least one (KB).
It is also worth noting that as the proposal stands, a character to spends time in an adventure that dries up (DM leaves or whatever) receives the same experience as a person who is DMing a successful adventure over the same time period. We are not talking huge rewards here.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 04:32 AM
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.
Regardless, I think we're stuck with it. I don't want to see the judges, or anyone else, passing judgement on a DMs adventure and rewarding his/her PCs accordingly. No one wants to be 'judged.' This would be intimidating to new DMs, the very DMs we're trying to attract. (not to mention more experienced DMs
) If this proposal passes, I think DM points need to be awarded on a set basis, with very little room for variation.
Look at it this way. Currently, there is no concrete reward incentive for a DM to complete an adventure at all. At least if this passes there will be an incentive to complete your adventure in some fashion. Personally, I don't see DMs looking at this in a calculating manner and structuring their adventures to take advantage of it. Of course, I could be wrong...
If this Job System passes, then PCs can start to earn XPs by sitting in the RDI. This could potentially change the dynamic of adventuring. It's always been the players' choice when to abandon a stalled adventure. If the Players think they can do more than just chat in the RDI, they may be more inclined to shut slow and stalled adventures down, which would counteract a DM's desire to exploit this proposal.
I think Slagmortar has a good point. Some of our most prolific DMs, such as KO & Patlin, haven't had great success moving their PCs up. I certainly wouldn't think it unfair for their PCs to have gained some minor benefit from the immense benefit these two have given to other PCs through their DMing.
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Salix02-17-06, 04:39 AM
That's actually rather brilliant--it is a much more elegant way to handle someone who wants to play a character with a lewvel adjustment than the current system of 'Make a dummy character -> Retire -> Make the LA character'
RA- I'm giving you my wife's email, it's about time she heard that about something that came out of my mouth.
On a more serious note, does anyone really think this would change their DM behaviour? This proposal seems to be a way of compensating people who DM. I would think if they wanted to gain XPs in an expediant way, instead of dragging out short adventures they would just play a character in one. It seems to me that characters can get a large amount of XPs from sitting in an adventure that is being abandoned, but the majority of their XPs are coming from in game action. I don't think getting time awards from DMing is going to push a character any faster than playing would.
If someone were to post a poll, there should probably be an ooc mention of it in the RDI. The people who are supposed to be swayed into taking a turn at DM aren't replying to this thread. It would be nice to hear from folks who haven't DMed yet.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 04:44 AM
On a more serious note, does anyone really think this would change their DM behaviour? This proposal seems to be a way of compensating people who DM. I would think if they wanted to gain XPs in an expediant way, instead of dragging out short adventures they would just play a character in one. It seems to me that characters can get a large amount of XPs from sitting in an adventure that is being abandoned, but the majority of their XPs are coming from in game action. I don't think getting time awards from DMing is going to push a character any faster than playing would.
It probably wouldn't be an issue for single adventures. The imaginable broken scenario is a GM who simultaneously takes on the task of running very short vignette adventures for maybe two or three characters each every time a character appears in the RDI looking for an adventure. They run perhaps ten adventures at once that have only a few encounters but nevertheless take a month to complete due to slowing them down. Then they spend the points. This would be guaranteed to level up their character every two months from GMing alone
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Jdvn102-17-06, 04:47 AM
Look at it this way. Currently, there is no concrete reward incentive for a DM to complete an adventure at all. At least if this passes there will be an incentive to complete your adventure in some fashion. Personally, I don't see DMs looking at this in a calculating manner and structuring their adventures to take advantage of it. Of course, I could be wrong...Well, whether or not a DM plans for it, sometimes a he's not thinking about his game. In SotD, KO has had to take some time off from DMing every once in a while. The game has had many full stops (to the point where we need to be reminded of what we're doing and why, and player(s?) have dropped). On the other hand, in Immortality Awakens, there have been a few pauses, but nothing to the extent of SotD.
Keeping the proposal as-is says that it's okay, or even beneficial, to have games with stops. There's no incentive to keep a game chugging along (in fact, there's incentive to not go as quickly as possible).
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
That way, you encourage things to keep moving and also give incentive to run games.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:00 AM
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
That way, you encourage things to keep moving and also give incentive to run games.
That would be pretty cool too, but I can't really think of many perks for 'high-level' GMs. Right now I can think of only two, and both are probably unfair to allow:
1) Psionic Jedi Mind Trick--you 'trick' the GM of the adventure containing your character into giving some Psionic treasure because your character is psionic. Because I haven't seen a GM do it yet voluntarily.
2) Easy Proposals--Your proposals now need only two Judges to vote 'Yes' before they pass.
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:04 AM
The imaginable broken scenario is a GM who simultaneously takes on the task of running very short vignette adventures for maybe two or three characters each every time a character appears in the RDI looking for an adventure.
The adventures still run through the judges so the judges should probably start to catch on around adventure 8 or so. 6 if they've had their morning coffee.
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
This would give DM's incentive to award more experience to their players.
The advantage of the current proposal is that it is simple and deterministic. You know what you are getting and its easy to calculate. A formula that is a little more complicated, but not too much is:
[#real time months] or [total #posts in the thread divided by 100], whichever is fewer.
This assumes that the average thread should have a total of around 3 posts per day by all parties (players and DM). You can't get more points by never posting and there is no way to increase you points beyond what is proposed in the thread.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:08 AM
This would give DM's incentive to award more experience to their players. But experience is awared strictly by CR. You can't artificially boost it. It encourages DMs to run through their encounters faster, and pick up the pace of the game in general.
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:10 AM
There's also roleplay bonuses, bonuses for posting, artificially inflated challenge ratings ...
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:10 AM
That would be pretty cool too, but I can't really think of many perks for 'high-level' GMs. Right now I can think of only two, and both are probably unfair to allow:A long time ago, I saw a system that used "GM level" as well as "Player level" to give some meta-game bonuses. Like, you could get minor bonuses to certain rolls at certain times (you'd get one-use cards and you'd declare you're using your card).
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:13 AM
But experience is awared strictly by CR. You can't artificially boost it. It encourages DMs to run through their encounters faster, and pick up the pace of the game in general.
It isn't strict. While KO told me that I am to give out full and exact XP for CR (rather than my usual cutting in thirds and using the rest for bonus awards), he also encouraged me to make those same bonus awards on top of the CR without allocating them from the normal XP. Also, there are some simple ways to change the XP around. For instance, I plan on giving you guys an EL of - 1 for this dragon because it was sleeping when you starting whacking on it, and you hit it for 77 damage before it could cast Mage Armour and fly off to equip itself. Thus, the fight was unrepresentatively easy, since it started off missing most of its HP.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:13 AM
There's also roleplay bonuses, bonuses for posting, artificially inflated challenge ratings ...... I've never been in a LEW game that has roleplaying bonuses, and posting bonuses. I can't speak for the artificially inflated challenge ratings, but that's done by-the-book too...
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:16 AM
It isn't strict. While KO told me that I am to give out full and exact XP for CR (rather than my usual cutting in thirds and using the rest for bonus awards), he also encouraged me to make those same bonus awards on top of the CR without allocating them from the normal XP.So, with Judge approval/recommendation.Also, there are some simple ways to change the XP around. For instance, I plan on giving you guys an EL of - 1 for this dragon because it was sleeping when you starting whacking on it, and you hit it for 77 damage before it could cast Mage Armour and fly off to equip itself. Thus, the fight was unrepresentatively easy, since it started off missing most of its HP.And lowering an EL (fair reason, I might add).
And don't game Judges have a say in XP allocation?
I'm not sure I see a problem, though.
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doghead02-17-06, 05:17 AM
Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?
Actually, thats not quite what I said. I just said that I couldn't say how it would have affected my descision to run my first adventure. Which is a little different from saying it wouldn't have affected my decision.
I don't see why the credits should be only awarded at the successful conclusion of an adventure. Its not that way for the character's In Play XP awards. I think DM's should be able to cash in their credits whenever they have a character they wish to use the credit on who is between adventures. This would mean that there is no real incentive to run short adventures.
If an adventure dies due to lost players, the DM still earns something. If a DM, after a periood of running an adventure, is forced to withdraw due to RL issues, again, so long as they give notice and do what they can to help with the handover or wrapping up, they should earn something.
I also think that DM's should be able to use the credits for any of their characters as they see fit. If they run multiple adventures they should be able to use all of the credit for one character. Of course, the between adventures proviso for characters would apply.
Of course there is the potential for abuse, just as there is the potential for players to park characters in an adventure and coast, contributing little but getting the rewards. But its a lot of work, making a proposal and running even a minimal adventure for the sake of a relatively small reward. But if this problem arise, the judges can handle them on a case to case basis.
Ultimately, what I like about the system isit allows players to take a little control over their characters development. Players can't contol the adventures that their character's are in. If they get unlucky with slow adventures that stalls alot, the player can do little about it. But with this system, people can run an adventure or two of their own (helping keep the RDI turning over) and do something to ensure that their character keeps moving forwards.
thotd
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:25 AM
I'm not sure I see a problem, though.
I agree that it's not likely to cause a problem. I guess I just like a system that is hardcapped by something easy to calculate and impossible to inflate like real time. I also like a system that rewards a game not stalling.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:26 AM
Actually, thats not quite what I said. I just said that I couldn't say how it would have affected my descision to run my first adventure. Which is a little different from saying it wouldn't have affected my decision.I mostly wanted to get the issue out there. I know that XP isn't going to make me want to run a game more, and that I haven't run a game has nothing to do with incentive. I like running games and I haven't had time to do it. I didn't know how many like-minded people there were, so I wanted the question to be proposed.
Ultimately, what I like about the system isit allows players to take a little control over their characters development. Players can't contol the adventures that their character's are in. If they get unlucky with slow adventures that stalls alot, the player can do little about it. But with this system, people can run an adventure or two of their own (helping keep the RDI turning over) and do something to ensure that their character keeps moving forwards.Can you use DM Points to level a character that's in an adventure? If so, could he level mid-adventure? Mid-battle? Wouldn't this affect the GM of that game?
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:29 AM
I agree that it's not likely to cause a problem. I guess I just like a system that is hardcapped by something easy to calculate and impossible to inflate like real time. I also like a system that rewards a game not stalling.I'm not sure why the DMxp system isn't easy to calculate. I suppose it's possible to inflate xp (I'm not sure how), but it'll likely be very difficult. And if it ends up being too easy, judges (and LEW in general) could be more strict about XP allocation (an estimate encounters, CR, and XP should be given beforehand).
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:32 AM
I thought of another potential problem with an award tied to the XP given to players. A DM has 5 players. 4 of them post twice a day. The other posts 50 times a day. The DM can also post 50 times a day. So the DM blows through most of the adventure with only the one player responding so that they can get more encounters in.
I have no problem with a DM saying, "I only want players that can post 50 times a day." at the beginning of his/her adventure. However, if that's not what the other players thought they were signing up for, I think they would feel jipped. I know I would. The DM could even be somewhat courteous and allow everyone to post their combat actions, but the 4 characters who can only post twice a day never get to roleplay out of combat.
With that, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the discussions!
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doghead02-17-06, 05:33 AM
Can you use DM Points to level a character that's in an adventure? If so, could he level mid-adventure? Mid-battle? Wouldn't this affect the GM of that game?
From my understanding of it, no. It can only be applied to a character while they are between adventures. Some form of descriptive explaination needs to be provided (and run past the judges) I believe.
Someone made a good point about who is not posting here. I didn't really pay any attention to the Discussion and Proposal threads before I started DM'ing. An ooc post to the rdi was suggested. Perhaps thats a good idea.
thotd
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:36 AM
With a system based on posts and dates, I can objectively look at the first post in a thread, last post in a thread, and # posts in a thread and determine the experience award for the DM in 30 seconds. This without reading a single post in the thread itself. It's obvious to even a casual observer that the award was done correctly. That's all I meant by easy.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:42 AM
I thought of another potential problem with an award tied to the XP given to players. A DM has 5 players. 4 of them post twice a day. The other posts 50 times a day. The DM can also post 50 times a day. So the DM blows through most of the adventure with only the one player responding so that they can get more encounters in.
I have no problem with a DM saying, "I only want players that can post 50 times a day." at the beginning of his/her adventure. However, if that's not what the other players thought they were signing up for, I think they would feel jipped. I know I would. The DM could even be somewhat courteous and allow everyone to post their combat actions, but the 4 characters who can only post twice a day never get to roleplay out of combat.I understand this is meant to be an extreme case, but I'm not sure it's realistic, either. There are few people with which, and few situations where, you could go through the entire roleplaying portion with just one character.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:44 AM
With a system based on posts and dates, I can objectively look at the first post in a thread, last post in a thread, and # posts in a thread and determine the experience award for the DM in 30 seconds. This without reading a single post in the thread itself. It's obvious to even a casual observer that the award was done correctly. That's all I meant by easy.Gotcha. But since a judge and a DM would be watching the game the entire time anyway, and both are keeping track of such things as XP, then it's about as easy to keep a running tally and divide by 10 at the end of the day.
Maybe not for the casual observer, but I'm not sure XP and DMxp would be important to a casual observer.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:47 AM
From my understanding of it, no. It can only be applied to a character while they are between adventures. Some form of descriptive explaination needs to be provided (and run past the judges) I believe.Well, since you like the idea of controlling a character, I was wondering what you thought about being able to apply DMxp to a character that's already in a game. I can see where it might cause problems, but I don't think it's a bad idea, in theory. I might want to ask for the other DM's approval on a good time to apply the DMxp. I would get that other DMs would be somewhat lenient on this.
Someone made a good point about who is not posting here. I didn't really pay any attention to the Discussion and Proposal threads before I started DM'ing. An ooc post to the rdi was suggested. Perhaps thats a good idea.Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
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Bront02-17-06, 06:41 AM
actually, this would strongly encourage me to run more adventures (even go back to a couple at a time) rather than stop after my current one ends, so I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.
Ditto.
I think this is a VERY good idea. Doesn't have to be a huge reward, but some reward would be good.
50 XP / month, or perhaps better yet, 25 XP per month per player.
or gold at about the same rate.
or even craft points at about the same rate.
I think it would encourage GMs who also play here to run more here.
I think it would allow for someone to start off at a higher level/ect with a new character (Build up 1000 xp credit, then start a new character), and if you limit it to being recieved only when characters are not in an adventure, it won't throw any current adventures off. Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way)
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doghead02-17-06, 06:52 AM
Well, since you like the idea of controlling a character, I was wondering what you thought about being able to apply DMxp to a character that's already in a game. I can see where it might cause problems, but I don't think it's a bad idea, in theory. I might want to ask for the other DM's approval on a good time to apply the DMxp. I would get that other DMs would be somewhat lenient on this.
I would have reservations about allowing it to happen while the character in question was mid-adventure. I'm sure most DM's could manage it. What concerns me would be how the sudden improvement is explained in game terms. If its down between adventures, a little story could be created to expain the improvement. For example, in Jaans case, it might be a little journey at the request of the temple of Verdante. Thus the additional experience could be explained.
Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
A post in the discussion thread would be a good idea. But alot of newer people don't necessary visit it much. I am going to make a little announcement in my adventure thread, although most of my players have checked in here already.
Again, I think allowing credits to be redeemed at the conclusion of an adventure is not a good idea. It could encourage hasty adventures. And timing could be a big problem. Getting an adventure to conclude at the same time a character is between adventures could be tricky. If you miss the window, it may be ages before you get another.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 06:53 AM
Ditto.
I think this is a VERY good idea. Doesn't have to be a huge reward, but some reward would be good.
50 XP / month, or perhaps better yet, 25 XP per month per player.
or gold at about the same rate.
or even craft points at about the same rate.
I think it would encourage GMs who also play here to run more here.
I think it would allow for someone to start off at a higher level/ect with a new character (Build up 1000 xp credit, then start a new character), and if you limit it to being recieved only when characters are not in an adventure, it won't throw any current adventures off. Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way)
Hey FoH better not die Lasair is still there, but there just doesn't seem to be anything she can do until we find a better suspect
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Salix02-17-06, 06:55 AM
Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
I have mostly seen the same folks posting to the general discussion thread that have been posting here. If your objective is to bring in newer people I really think you have to direct them to this thread in the RDI.
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Salix02-17-06, 07:03 AM
Ditto.
Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way)
A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:18 AM
I have mixed feelings about this. At first I felt uneasy with character benefits derived from something in which the character wasn't involved. But I felt the same way when I first heard about roleplay-based XP bonuses, something totally foreign to my 1/e experience, and I've made my peace with them. XP is an abstraction anyway. I'd be opposed to awarding treasure to characters based on their players' other activities, but an intangible such as XP is different. I would still apply the same principle I've argued in the past regarding time-based XP: keep it small enough that it doesn't become what principally drives character advancement.
I also think, if we do go this route, we should make it possible to save up reserves of XP credits and apply them to a not-yet created character. That way, a player who has contributed enough to LEW can create a LA-race character without having to retire another character (assuming (s)he isn't at the 3-character limit).
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:21 AM
A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
Alternates, as in new characters replacing old? Some adventures have re-recruited midstream when there's a plausible in-character way to do it. But if the party is deep in a dungeon far removed from civilization, don't count on new people just showing up to join the expedition. Generally abandoned characters become NPCs for the duration of the adventure, or until there is a plausible time to write in their departure.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 07:27 AM
Alternates, as in new characters replacing old? Some adventures have re-recruited midstream when there's a plausible in-character way to do it. But if the party is deep in a dungeon far removed from civilization, don't count on new people just showing up to join the expedition. Generally abandoned characters become NPCs for the duration of the adventure, or until there is a plausible time to write in their departure.
Yup. IA has had people leave, and Dagummit the dwarf became an NPC under my control after he left, causing him to recruit more adventurers, plus he brought another NPC to the inn who wound up starting another adventure.
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doghead02-17-06, 07:34 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
M3: Assassin's Knot. 6 months. 975 posts. 160/month.
E1: Tomb of Chaos. 3 months. 478 posts. 160/month.
Hired Hands. 7 months. 741 posts. 105/month.
Ransom for Retirement. 3 months. 208 posts. 70/month.
Fort Knocks. 13 months. 524 posts. 40/month.
Slaves of the Dragon. 11 months. 762 posts. 70/month.
DoS: Azaroth Alone. <1 month. 9 posts. --------
Clash of Earth and Sea. 6 months. 494 posts. 80/month.
IA: A teacher for Laynie. 2 months. 297 posts. 145/month.
Immortality Awakens II. 3 months. 412 posts. 137/month.
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.
Short and Sweet. 2 months. 143 posts. 70/month.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 07:36 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
M3: Assassin's Knot. 6 months. 975 posts. 160/month.
E1: Tomb of Chaos. 3 months. 478 posts. 160/month.
Hired Hands. 7 months. 741 posts. 105/month.
Ransom for Retirement. 3 months. 208 posts. 70/month.
Fort Knocks. 13 months. 524 posts. 40/month.
Slaves of the Dragon. 11 months. 762 posts. 70/month.
DoS: Azaroth Alone. <1 month. 9 posts. --------
Clash of Earth and Sea. 6 months. 494 posts. 80/month.
IA: A teacher for Laynie. 2 months. 297 posts. 145/month.
Immortality Awakens II. 3 months. 412 posts. 137/month.
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.
Short and Sweet. 2 months. 143 posts. 70/month.
You missed Immortality Awakens I--it had even more posts per month and was the max thread length, like 1200 posts
Checked it--1225 / 6 = 204.166666
Also, IA had a several-hundred-post-long vignette for Thurgan and Krug when they were joining up with the others.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:48 AM
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.That's exactly how I feel about it as well.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:49 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
...
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.... Wow. If I didn't like the monthly way before, I really don't like it now.
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rln02-17-06, 07:56 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this amount fo feedback in just a day
Regarding DMs stalling an adventure: Doesn't this apply to players as well, given the system is the same? Anyway, this is one of the reasons judges should be allowed to make a different call, though I agree it should be extraordinary things that call for any penalties. Being on hold for a month during christmas breaks, school work etc is quite normal. I think just the fact the line about judges making the final call would be a natural deterrent to "gold diggers".
Regarding running many adventures: If I'm not mistaken, you'd have to run one adventure for 20 months, or 5 adventures for 4 months to level up on PC, regardless of level. You could easily level up quicker by adventuring. Should the number of credits become a problem - set a "per year" limit.
Also, all adventures need to go be proposed to the judges before commencing. I think the fact that a DM is already running two or three games at a slow pace should be a reason to say no - not really because of her gaining a lot of DM credits, but because of the risk of DM burnout!
Regarding a fourth character: Well, this may be interesting for a few people, but I haven't even had the time to finish up my second character yet, let alone play it. Besides, I prefer to get more DM's into the game, not PC's
Regarding attracting DM's: With this little benefit, I would probably have considered proposing and running an adventure instead of having Ogrin roll his thumbs in the Tavern. My time likely doesn't allow me to both play & DM in LEW. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.
Regarding who would oversee the between adventure bonus activity: I think just a note in the end of the adventure itself (if the credits arespent immediately) or in the General thread (if they're spent later) would suffice. The number of adventures that end every week is still quite limited.
Regarding level adjustment: I originally did write that into the XP paragraph - spend the amount of credits needed to take a new character to the next level, and you can start that character at that level, with all the benefits. I removed it so the proposal wouldn't be too cluttered. It's easy to add back.
Regarding DM XP (Jdvn1): This means DM's would benefit more from running high-level adventures. My proposal gives the same benefit to everyone. And, if there is need for a high-level adventure, the DM's could offer a double reward for anyone running such a game.
Regarding DM levels: I have a hard time seeing metagame benefits for DM's. Besides, lets just hope we don't get PirateCat in here, or we'll have to start thinking about Epic DM levels quite soon
Regarding handover vs abandoning: I agree this should be dealt with as a successful conclusion. There has, however, been a few games which has ended just because the DM went away. I played in one of them.
An idea could be to evaluate this during 2006,see how it goes, and adjust it or vote on it in january 2007. No need to make it permanent from the beginning.
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rln02-17-06, 07:58 AM
... Wow. If I didn't like the monthly way before, I really don't like it now.
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
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doghead02-17-06, 08:12 AM
You missed Immortality Awakens I--it had even more posts per month and was the max thread length, like 1200 posts
Checked it--1225 / 6 = 204.166666
I wouldn't have dared. Actually, I just got tired of doing it, and figured a dozen was enough of a sample.
I did wonder about side adventures, or "alone" threads. But I just decided to count everything.
thotd.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:12 AM
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
I have no clue, is it? That wouldn't make it so bad. There's still quite a discrepancy, though.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 08:14 AM
I have no clue, is it? That wouldn't make it so bad. There's still quite a discrepancy, though.
It has a character name followed by alone, so it must be a breakoff thread with just the one player and the GM. So Fort Knocks is the slowest full game, at a rate of 1/5 the speed of the fastest game.
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rln02-17-06, 08:15 AM
It seems to be a break-out thread from M3: Assassin's Knot (6 months., 975 posts). If there should be a reward for number of posts, these kinds of threads will have to be included as well, I guess.
Number of posts also varies with a posting style. A DM that makes one long combat summary gets a lower reward, while a DM that posts in between each player action. I think the time spent is more important than how active the DM is. As long as a slow post rate isn't detrimental to the flow of the game, I do not see a problem. Some DMs/players may prefer a checking and posting 5-10 times a day, while I (who is based in Sweden) have a hard time keeping up when there's been just 5 posts during the night (which is daytime in the US).
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:24 AM
Regarding DM XP (Jdvn1): This means DM's would benefit more from running high-level adventures. My proposal gives the same benefit to everyone. And, if there is need for a high-level adventure, the DM's could offer a double reward for anyone running such a game.With the make-up of the EN World population, I'm not sure we have to worry about high level games so much. It is a graduated scale, though. But the DM XP proposal also means that DMs benefit faster from faster-paced games, and that's one of the things I'm driving at.
Is there a way to compromise the two? Maybe a xp/(level*10) formula?
I understand characters use the same monthly formula, but there's a reaon for that. If there wasn't a monthly xp bonus, then levelling would take forever since the games already take a really long time. The same argument doesn't apply to this. Their characters already benefit from a monthly xp bonus. The time it takes to gain a new level is already "fixed."
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Heckler02-17-06, 08:25 AM
Hello, new person here.
My two cents:
If there's a large surplus of players right now compared to GMs, looking at the RDI it seems to me the problem is that there is a large influx of NEW players. Please consider that if a bunch of us enjoy ourselves and stick around, the problem may solve itself overtime as some of us will start to DM. (Conversely, we might hate it and run away, also solving the problem )
Speaking for myself, any kind of DM reward system would have no affect on my decision to run something. What would influence my decision is whether or not I'm enjoying myself here. I've never played pbp before, but if I'm having fun I'll want to contribute back. I'll need to feel "comfortable." You all seem like perfectly nice people, but I need to spend some time here to make sure I "fit in."
I've played in other games/organizations before, and populations always fluxuate. You're in a place where you've got a bunch of newbies rushing in. Let us knock about for a while so we can figure this whole ENworld thing out. Then decide if there's a problem that needs fixing.
Again, just my two cents.
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rln02-17-06, 08:27 AM
With the make-up of the EN World population, I'm not sure we have to worry about high level games so much. It is a graduated scale, though. But the DM XP proposal also means that DMs benefit faster from faster-paced games, and that's one of the things I'm driving at.
Is there a way to compromise the two? Maybe a xp/(level*10) formula?
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
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orsal02-17-06, 08:28 AM
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
Yes. Not only that, but the breakout threads lie dormant for some time while we're all together in the main thread, and then get reactivated when we split up. We're a bunch of investigators who spend the day in separate groups while pretending not to notice each other, then hook up secretly to exchange notes. So the posts/month figure is deceptive -- the time elapsed between the first and last post is no indicator of how much time the thread has actually been active.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:29 AM
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
Going from xp/10 to xp/(level*10) doesn't make things much more complicated.
Also, note my edit.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:33 AM
You all seem like perfectly nice people, but I need to spend some time here to make sure I "fit in."Most of us are so different, I'm not sure anyone "fits in" with anyone else. Look at Rystil's non-LEW games for example. They're very different from this. We also have people that have their own system or use tons of house rules in their own games. There's quite a variety here, and I think that's one of our strengths.
Let us knock about for a while so we can figure this whole ENworld thing out. Then decide if there's a problem that needs fixing.Come, learn! I don't think there's anything that needs fixing, we just come up with new ideas at odd intervals. We hope they make things better.
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Bront02-17-06, 08:44 AM
A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
Wouldn't help, mostly because timeline wise, there is 1 day left till completion, and it takes a week to get from the RDI.
I'll finish it up one way or the other, I just was hoping to not have to drag everything along forcebly.
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Bront02-17-06, 08:54 AM
I have mixed feelings about this. At first I felt uneasy with character benefits derived from something in which the character wasn't involved. But I felt the same way when I first heard about roleplay-based XP bonuses, something totally foreign to my 1/e experience, and I've made my peace with them. XP is an abstraction anyway. I'd be opposed to awarding treasure to characters based on their players' other activities, but an intangible such as XP is different. I would still apply the same principle I've argued in the past regarding time-based XP: keep it small enough that it doesn't become what principally drives character advancement.
I also think, if we do go this route, we should make it possible to save up reserves of XP credits and apply them to a not-yet created character. That way, a player who has contributed enough to LEW can create a LA-race character without having to retire another character (assuming (s)he isn't at the 3-character limit).
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.
I play in a con based living game, and we reward GMs for running games with minimal XP awards. It's better than nothing, and prevents the "I don't want to GM because I can't play" scenerio, to a point.
Holding them is a given I think, for the reason you state, as well as others.
I would be weary about giving them mid adventure, because it could cause problems in an otherwise well balanced adventure by having one player suddently gain more experience or money. Hense making them wait to where a shift in power is much less an issue.
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Heckler02-17-06, 09:23 AM
There's quite a variety here, and I think that's one of our strengths.
Agreed
Come, learn! I don't think there's anything that needs fixing, we just come up with new ideas at odd intervals. We hope they make things better.
I didn't mean to indicate that I thought something was broken. I simply meant that regarding the player/DM ratio issue, maybe the best thing to do is nothing.
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El Jefe02-17-06, 01:29 PM
It seems to be a break-out thread from M3: Assassin's Knot (6 months., 975 posts). If there should be a reward for number of posts, these kinds of threads will have to be included as well, I guess.I think Eanos Alone is an excellent example of why a little intelligence would need to be applied to this, instead of blindly counting posts. It is a break-out from Assassin's Knot. But more relevant to this discussion is the reason for the very low rate of posts per month. Originally, Eanos Alone was started when the party decided to split up in order to investigate the town of Three Rings. The idea was that the townspeople wouldn't get wise to the fact that the party was working together. Eanos weht off and did his thing, and midway through the adventure, he rejoined the group. At that point, all posts pertaining to Eanos moved back to the main thread. Eanos Alone was effectively concluded, and lay dormant for a long time.
Recently, Eanos split from the party again to go off and run an errand. Manzanita had several options here. He could have kept everything in the main thread, and insisted everyone use spoiler blocks to keep the party's actions separate from Eanos's actions. Or, he could have started an Eanos Alone II thread. Instead, he chose to revive Eanos Alone, which is now two break-out threads stacked on top of each other with a long gap in between.Number of posts also varies with a posting style. A DM that makes one long combat summary gets a lower reward, while a DM that posts in between each player action. I think the time spent is more important than how active the DM is.I think the first Festival of Halina thread is a great example of this. Take a look at the posts per day for that one, and complare with Festival of Halina II: Adventurers Gone Wild. FoH was very lively and a lot of fun to participate in, but part of the reason for that was the amazing number of OoC posts. At times it was more of a chat session than an adventure. There have been several drop-outs in FoH II. The players that are left know each other a lot better, and both the IC and OoC posts have dropped off considerably.
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 01:58 PM
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
ditto. I could swear that a single poster in this thread has argued against this on the basis of it not changing the number of DMs and on the basis that it would inspire massive DMing fraud to game the system. I think adventure approval would stop any ill intentioned over-DMing in its tracks, even if I imagined such silliness coming to pass. per month works for players, why not dms?
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 02:48 PM
As the person who brought up counting posts, I never meant for that to be used in isolation. I suggested counting months and # posts/100 and using the lower. This expects a post rate of around 3 per day. There's no benefit to more than 3 per day. Even if there is an "off alone" thread, there should still be 3 posts per day in the main thread. Anyway, I still like the time based best.
-My 2 cp
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rln02-17-06, 02:57 PM
Agreed.
I'm going to add/clarify:
* allocation of credits for time spent is static, but judges can overrule it under special circumstances, such as extremely slow post rate, large intervals of idling and similar things.
* use of DM credits to add XP for new PC's to allow starting at higher levels/level adjustments
I'm not adding:
* rewards per post
* rewards per "XP delivered"
... as I see both of these as needlessly complicated. We can solve the problem if and when it becomes a problem.
I'm not sure if I should propose a vote on it, as it isn't a normal "rules add-on" (like a feat or PrC). I would however suggest a one-year test period, before it's put in permanently, since some people are a bit sceptic.
-- Rolf
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Velmont02-17-06, 03:26 PM
* rewards per "XP delivered"
I am against that one. DM might give more XP, and it would favor high level adventure over low level. Someone who runs an adventure for a single level 10 player would recieve more than someone who run a 1st level adventure for 4 persons. In long term, it might even kill LEW as new players will feel biased by that rule, as DM might decide to reiase the level of there adventure just to have a better reward.
I would rather go for time or post rather than XP or number of player.
Not number of player is I would liek to see more backgroudn oriented adventure, which would mainly be solo or small group adventures.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:28 PM
per month works for players, why not dms?As I said earlier, the same argument doesn't apply.
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 04:20 PM
As I said earlier, the same argument doesn't apply.
why not? a player may enter a character in an adventure he or she doesn't care so much about and just post once a week or so to stop from being bumped but contribute little to the adventure. The fact that you find the argument less compelling in one case is not the same as it not applying. (indeed I find it uncompelling in either case.)
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rln02-17-06, 04:26 PM
I would rather go for time or post rather than XP or number of player.
I think you missed the line where I said I wasn't adding that to the proposal?
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Velmont02-17-06, 04:32 PM
I think you missed the line where I said I wasn't adding that to the proposal?
At the number of post there have been in the last 24h, yeap, I've miss it and many othe rthing, but I wanted to tell my opinion on that.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 04:36 PM
At the number of post there have been in the last 24h, yeap, I've miss it and many othe rthing, but I wanted to tell my opinion on that.
Hey, 87 isn't that many posts for this many people--I've seen games with hundreds of posts in a day
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rln02-17-06, 04:48 PM
Updated proposal.
(At least noone thought it completely sucked the warts of a cane toads back yet)
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(See "Second proposal" in original post.
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Velmont02-17-06, 04:54 PM
Updated proposal.
Can you do it on the first post too. It make it easier to understand teh proposal. Every proposal should be like that, having teh updated proposal on the first post.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 05:13 PM
Wow. Quite a thread you've started rln.
Another way we might determine DM points would be by page. Say 1 DM point per 5 to 10 pages in the thread. A page represents any number of posts, depending upon their length. Thus it does not reward frequent small posts over slower large posts. Theoretically, larger posts are better, in that they reflect greater detail given by the DM, and better RP by the PCs. By counting pages, we neutralize any incentive to move slowly, and reward speed and posting depth. Breakout threads would be aggregated by the judge to determine total pages used in the adventure. Personally, I'm going to try to use fewer breakout threads in the future. While splitting a party in PbP is certainly more practical than in tabletop, it still leads to problems. Currently M3 is split into three parties, only one of whom can be active, b/c the other two are waiting to see how their actions turn out before being able to proceed.
Doghead(?) had a good point when he stated that it could take a long time to find a point when both your PC and your DMing has produced an opportunity to use your DM points. I think we should allow DM points to be used during an adventure, at the option of that adventure's DM. The player could make aa OOC post saying "I have 5 DM points I'd like to use next time you allocate XPs. Would that be OK?"
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:16 PM
Wow. Quite a thread you've started rln.
Another way we might determine DM points would be by page. Say 1 DM point per 5 to 10 pages in the thread. A page represents any number of posts, depending upon their length. Thus it does not reward frequent small posts over slower large posts. Theoretically, larger posts are better, in that they reflect greater detail given by the DM, and better RP by the PCs. By counting pages, we neutralize any incentive to move slowly, and reward speed and posting depth. Breakout threads would be aggregated by the judge to determine total pages used in the adventure. Personally, I'm going to try to use fewer breakout threads in the future. While splitting a party in PbP is certainly more practical than in tabletop, it still leads to problems. Currently M3 is split into three parties, only one of whom can be active, b/c the other two are waiting to see how their actions turn out before being able to proceed.
Doghead(?) had a good point when he stated that it could take a long time to find a point when both your PC and your DMing has produced an opportunity to use your DM points. I think we should allow DM points to be used during an adventure, at the option of that adventure's DM. The player could make aa OOC post saying "I have 5 DM points I'd like to use next time you allocate XPs. Would that be OK?"
Unfortunately, you are wrong about page size--it is split every 40 posts, regardless of length.
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Velmont02-17-06, 05:22 PM
Unfortunately, you are wrong about page size--it is split every 40 posts, regardless of length.
It split every 20, 30 or 40. It is in your user setting you determine that. I've been playing with it since I'm on ENWorld. While in Africa, with low d/l rate, I was favoring 20 (the smallest) as it takes less time to d/l. Now, I favor 40 as it allow me to see better the story of teh game I play and less earching for the post I want to remember.
Anyway, all that to tell that you can set the number of post per page.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:24 PM
It split every 20, 30 or 40. It is in your user setting you determine that. I've been playing with it since I'm on ENWorld. While in Africa, with low d/l rate, I was favoring 20 (the smallest) as it takes less time to d/l. Now, I favor 40 as it allow me to see better the story of teh game I play and less earching for the post I want to remember.
Anyway, all that to tell that you can set the number of post per page.
Oh, I know that you can change the default. I'm just saying that it isn't based on post length.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 05:28 PM
OK then. Never mind. bad idea to use # of pages.
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Knight Otu02-17-06, 06:52 PM
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure. If applied to a new character and it would bring the character up a level, that character can start at the higher level (or with a Level Adjusted race or template) with all benefits.
Meaning it would take 20 DM credits to create, say, a level 1 aasimar or tiefling or other ECL 2 character (2 levels, 1 level +1LA), 40 for an ECL 3 character, 60 for an ECL 4 character, 80 for ECL 5, 100 for ECL 6, 120 for ECL7, and 140 for ECL 8. I think it would still be 160 for ECL 9, but afterwards, they would definitely be more costly.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.
That would definitely apply to my adventures.
This proposal would not give me an incentive to run more adventures (apart from the fact that my players would murder me if I started a third adventure, I have found that two adventures at one time is currently too much for me). However, it might encourage me to start a new adventure after concluding my current two adventures, and keep starting adventures after the conclusion of the previous adventure. Of course, I do have other adventures in the back of my head I'd like to run, and propably would do so even without the incentive.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 06:57 PM
I think this might encourage me to continue running adventures here down the line as well. It certainly wouldn't discourage me. I think we should get some form of this passed.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:02 PM
why not?As I said earlier, the reasoning behind the PC xp/month idea was because it takes forever to level a character and it sucks to have to wait a year (or more) to gain a level. With the PC xp/month rule, this issue has been supposedly resolved.
If you don't think the issue has been resolved (thus rendering the argument still valid), then it still makes no difference to this discussion because since it still takes too long to level, the xp/month should be raised for all PCs.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 07:09 PM
If we did assign points monthly, it would take 20 months of DMing to raise your PC a level. Considering I think a good leveling rate is one for 6 months of active play, that's 3 levels in 18 months. Most PCs don't go this fast, many don't even come close. A DM's primary PC would thus level 33% or more faster than comparable PCs. Potentially even faster than this if the DM ran multiple adventures simutaneously.
I think this is too much.
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:17 PM
(At least noone thought it completely sucked the warts of a cane toads back yet)I'm not a huge fan of the proposal, simply because I don't think LEW needs it, but I'm not totally against it either, because I don't think it harms LEW.
The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc). It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall".I'm also for gaining a reward while mid-adventure, with the approval of the game's DM.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.These options are making less of a stir, and I like them better.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.... While good intentioned, I don't see it occuring a lot in practice, except by judge vote. It seems very, very subjective.
Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.I wonder if we need this line. I'd rather a bunch of DMs run one adventure than fewer DMs run a number of adventures. Since it seems like there may be more DMs, an issue might be that DMs won't be able to find players for their games.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon, to see if it should be made permanent or removed.A good idea--a trial period. Would the DM Points accrued in this time be kept seperate, to facilitate easier subtraction should the system be removed? Or would the system just drop?
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:20 PM
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.I don't think point/post is a good idea. If we're going to use the point/month, we could adjust the value of a point. 2 points = 1 PC month of xp. Or a flat number of points per level.
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Knight Otu02-17-06, 07:27 PM
I think we can fine-tune the amount of XP gained from DM credits if we choose to use the system. We could go for 25 XP/level/credit, to a maximum of 200 XP/credit for characters of level 8+, keeping the gold and craft points at 50/level/credit, to a maximum of 400/credit for level 8+.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:44 PM
* Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
* Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.These options are making less of a stir, and I like them better.
Although, in my case, as I'm currently leaning, the money option would be what tips me to vote against this proposal. I'm not abolutely sure I'd vote for it otherwise, or against it if money is an optin -- in both cases, I'm listening to further persuasion -- but if I had to vote right now, that's how I'd call it.
Anybody want to make the case, since this point hasn't made the stir it should, that PCs should be eligible for tangible benefits not derived from their own storyline?
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 07:47 PM
A sudden windfall of money could be explained in lots of ways. The easiest would be a guy shows up with a bag of money and says, "You were terribly difficult to track down. I'm sorry to report that your wealthy third cousin on your mother's side has passed away. She left you this. Bye."
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 08:33 PM
If we did assign points monthly, it would take 20 months of DMing to raise your PC a level. Considering I think a good leveling rate is one for 6 months of active play, that's 3 levels in 18 months. Most PCs don't go this fast, many don't even come close. A DM's primary PC would thus level 33% or more faster than comparable PCs. Potentially even faster than this if the DM ran multiple adventures simutaneously.
I think this is too much.
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.
Ultimately, though I did chime in to help find exploits, I support the system. It can't possibly have a deterring effect on GMs, and even if the attracting effect is low, if it exists at all, that is a good thing.
As far as 'too much XP', sometimes XP goes much faster than a level per six months. To give a good example, take Krug the dwarf. He stumbled into the inn directly from creation right when Thurgan was looking to leave to join Immortality Awakens, joining immediately, then he rode along on the coattails of Thurgan (who was already level 3 at the time) into a bevy of orcs. By the time the smoke cleared, he was level 2 (technically he got 900 XP in 15 days, and the rest followed quickly). Compared to that, the GM XP can't possibly be problematic.
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Erekose1302-17-06, 10:11 PM
While I am not set on the gp rewards the amounts suggested are pretty miniscule, but say with ao'Thuir where I was 75gp short of a masterwork weapon at 3rd level, I might have been inclined to throw him some money with DM credits. Where as, while Tenebrynn could use some cash, he is above the curve on weath by level ratio so I wouldn't bother with money and send some XP love his way. At a cap of 400gp for a month's work I don't think that you will greatly affect the wealth of an 8th level character at all.
Also just wanted to quickly chime in on why the points for XP would be a bad way to go. My first adventure that I am running is for 6 characters average 4th level. By the end I expect they'll all have enough to get up a level and most of the way through the next. Thats 6*9000=54000xp in say a total of 6-8 months real time of adventuring. I think thats a heck of a lot more than the average 1st level adventure for 4 will churn out.
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Pbartender02-17-06, 10:25 PM
Allow me to be an example of a player who's had relatively bad luck gaining experience, and whose character would tangibly benefit from this proposal...
My sole character (Jack Haggerty) has earned a total of 3,554 XP since his creation nearly 30 months ago on 9/7/03. I have absolutely no interest in playing more than one character at a time in LEW.
He was created at roughly the same as characters such as Velmont's Rinaldo (12,775 XP), GnomeWork's Troi (9,248 XP), Keia's Thurgan (9,015 XP) and Manzanita's Ignatious (8,228 XP).
He has participated in three adventures during that time...
Slaying the Dreamer was abandoned by its DM, and ran from 9/19/03 until 5/21/04, when I had to take it upon myself as a Judge to end the adventure. ~ 8 months.
Pest Removal of Unusual Height and Depth was abandoned by its DM, but finished by an intervening Judge. It ran from 6/2/04 until 1/28/05. ~ 8 months.
Slaves of the Dragon is ongoing with occasional lulls. It has been running since 3/14/05. ~ 11 months and counting.
I've run two adventures as a DM...
A Tidy Profit was abandoned by the players. It ran from 12/19/03 until 6/22/04, when I ended the adventure without resolution. ~ 6 months.
Treasure of the Sierra Padre was abandoned by half the players, but continued with reinforcements from the Red Dragon Inn, who helped complete the adventure. It ran from 6/15/04 until 6/9/05. ~ 12 months.
As things are going now, it'll take years before Jack has enough XP to even think about taking levels in the Little Sneak Prestige Class that was designed with him in mind. The very thought of that has me considering retiring him and quitting LEW at the end of his current adventure.
Assuming the proposed rule had been in place from the beginning, my character would have an extra 1,800 XP (or gold), using the old XP per month rules, or an extra 2,700 XP (or gold), using the new XP per month rules... While it wouldn't be nearly enough to get him up to the Xp levels of some of his contemporaries, it could be enough to bump Jack up to 4th level, or at least put him within spitting distance of it... Or give him one useful minor magic item.
Currently, I'd stopped DMing adventures due to years of frustration (both in and outside of LEW) of PbP players going AWOL in the middle of an adventure. An incentive of this sort would at least get me thinking about running a couple of (very) short adventures (vignettes) again.
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Salix02-17-06, 11:42 PM
I think we just heard from Pbartender what this proposal really stands to do: retain DMs and prevent DM burnout. When I look at the names of who started adventure threads it is pretty much a small amount of people with multiple games. Maybe this would recruit one or two DMs, that would be great. But if it keeps the ones we have DMing that would be even better.
On the other hand, for the small time -first time DM this proposal doesn't offer a lot, maybe your character starts off with a little nicer equipment. But then again if it gets one person to try DMing when they really never thought to try it before, and they turn into a repeat DM, then I think it's served its purpose.
It would be great if the judges and those who know the ins and outs of PbP could figure out an appropriate reward system, and we could test run this for awhile.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:03 AM
Also just wanted to quickly chime in on why the points for XP would be a bad way to go. My first adventure that I am running is for 6 characters average 4th level. By the end I expect they'll all have enough to get up a level and most of the way through the next. Thats 6*9000=54000xp in say a total of 6-8 months real time of adventuring. I think thats a heck of a lot more than the average 1st level adventure for 4 will churn out.It was meant to be the xp for a single character. So don't multiply by 6. Basically, it'd be a tenth of the xp that one would have gotten having actually spent the time adventuring.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 07:09 AM
It was meant to be the xp for a single character. So don't multiply by 6. Basically, it'd be a tenth of the xp that one would have gotten having actually spent the time adventuring.
Why would it be the XP for a single character? That actually significantly penalises GMs that have multiple characters. Say a Dragon is worth 5,000 XP. The GM who lets two newbies tag along with the two regulars who do the brunt of the work will get half as much DM XP for the same fight as one who only has the two high-level characters.
I really don't like the XP-based system for this, and I would actually prefer either time or posts to that.
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Erekose1302-18-06, 07:24 AM
In any case, I agree with the general sentiment, that rewarding by xp is not the way to go. Time seems a good constant and I think the numbers that KO suggested are fine.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:57 AM
Why would it be the XP for a single character? That actually significantly penalises GMs that have multiple characters. Say a Dragon is worth 5,000 XP. The GM who lets two newbies tag along with the two regulars who do the brunt of the work will get half as much DM XP for the same fight as one who only has the two high-level characters.The previous example had six same-levelled characters. I used the phrase "max xp" earlier to refer to the xp of the character receiving the most experience points. I don't think it was understood, though. Possibly, an average-level xp or some other system might be used, but it seems like there's a way to exploit any system.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:58 AM
I think the numbers that KO suggested are fine.I also prefer the numbers KO suggests.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:03 AM
The previous example had six same-levelled characters. I used the phrase "max xp" earlier to refer to the xp of the character receiving the most experience points. I don't think it was understood, though. Possibly, an average-level xp or some other system might be used, but it seems like there's a way to exploit any system.
I would rather have a system that was exploitable than one that screws over GMs that take extra players, though.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:05 AM
I also prefer the numbers KO suggests.
For what it's worth, I prefer the system that goes up to 50 / level maximum based on activity. Frankly, the GP is insignificant and the CP is only useful to a few character types, so the XP is going to be the main thing chosen. With that in mind, I see no reason why the higher number is not fine for an active, motivated GM.
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rln02-18-06, 09:09 AM
* 50XP/level per credit gives the same reward as a player gets for time spent. I thought it was reasonable to use the same value.
* GP = XP is a wee bit (100gp) over the recommended value for level 1, on par for level 2-5, with a downgoing curve goes down after that (compared to the treasure table in the DMG). I think it's quite reasonable as well. When starting a new character, you will rather spend it on XP, start at a higher level and gain the starting equipment for that level, so this is mostly for PCs already in the game.
* Craft points - I really do not know a good amount, so I'm still asking for a decent value there, preferrably from someone that has actually used it What's the amount gained per level today? I'd expect that 20 credits (the same amount needed to go up a level if it was spent on XP) should give about twice that - otherwise the player would rather spend it on XP, go up a level, and still get the same amount of craft points.
Limiting spending DM points on character levels below 9 could be a good idea, at least for now, since there are few (no) high-level characters in the game.
Few systems are bug-free from the start, but I think social protocols will prevent most abuse. No need to think of _everything_ from the start.
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Manzanita02-18-06, 04:14 PM
I like the proposal, but I'm not satisfied with the details.
For DM/players running 1 adventure, and using their DM credits to gain XPs for their favorite PC, time spent awards alone would advance that PC 1 level in 10 months. Add XPs for adventuring and it's not unreasonable.
For DMs running 2 adventures (there's at least 3 of them, and God bless them!), if they focused their DM credits on XPs for one PC, time spent awards would level up that PC in 6 2/3 months. Add XPs for adventuring & that could be pretty steep. For DMs running 3 adventures (which has happened), they'd accrue a level up every 5 months, not including activity in their adventure.
Considering many adventures last a whole year, spending the DM credits at the conclusion of an adventure could easily mean 'skipping' a level.
I wonder if we should restrict this in some way. Perhaps reducing the credit to 25XP/level per credit, or requiring that DM credits accrued in concurant adventures to be applied either to different PCs or to different rewards (GPs vs. XPs)
Also,
A DM which abandons an adventure gets no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure
I think this may be excessive. If you look at Creamsteak's Heros of Vesper Peaks, which dragged on for over 12 months, any DM picking that one up to conclude would get quite a pack of DM credits. I think merely giving credit for the time spent after taking it over would be sufficient.
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Knight Otu02-18-06, 05:36 PM
For DM/players running 1 adventure, and using their DM credits to gain XPs for their favorite PC, time spent awards alone would advance that PC 1 level in 10 months. Add XPs for adventuring and it's not unreasonable.
For DMs running 2 adventures (there's at least 3 of them, and God bless them!), if they focused their DM credits on XPs for one PC, time spent awards would level up that PC in 6 2/3 months. Add XPs for adventuring & that could be pretty steep. For DMs running 3 adventures (which has happened), they'd accrue a level up every 5 months, not including activity in their adventure.
Are you using the new 50XP/level/month system, or the old 100XP/month? It seems you are using the latter?
As for idle time, how about the following: every ten days of idle time reduce the DM credits for that adventure by 1. Days where the DM waited on the players either don't count, or only count for half.
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Manzanita02-18-06, 05:58 PM
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rln02-16-06, 09:46 AM
(This proposal was inspired by the Job System Redux (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=167413) Proposal thread)
Some argue that DMing is a reward in itself. While that may be true or not, I think that adding a small perk for those willing to DM could increase the amount of DM's willing to propose and run an adventure.
While the rules below mention only adventuring, Judges may assign other uses of DM credits as well - such as an award per month for playing Joe in the RDI, one time rewards for thread compilation, offer a 50% bonus to anyone willing to run a level 1 adventure if there are a lot of new players in the RDI, and so on...
Fourth& Current Proposal:
After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure. A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall". Credits spent must be approved by a Judge, either in the General thread or at the end of the adventure thread where he gained the credits. DM credits should be documented similar to XP.
Credits can normally only be spent on a PC that is not on an adventure. Players on an adventure can petition their DM to allow using DM credits but he has no obligation to allow its use. Even if he allows it, he may limit spending as he sees fit. Also, spending must still be approved by a judge (see above).
DM credits spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains 50 XP per ECL per DM credit spent. If applied to a new character, you can start that character at a higher level with all benefits (ie more starting treasure, use a LA race/template and so on).
Money - the PC gains 50 GP per ECL per DM credit
Craft points - the PC gains 25 CP per ECL per DM credit
Rewards are limited to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 400XP, 400 GP or 200 CP by one DM credit.
Special considerations:
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification gets no reward for that adventure. If a DM quits an adventure prematurely but gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) she receives full credit up until the point she quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point on in time. If an adventure ends due to player dropout, the DM gets full credit.
As there are some long-running adventures in LEW, the DMs of these can petition the judge to award credits during the course of the adventure, typically at the same time as XP is given to the players.
Adventures running in parallell will all yield DM credits.
Implementation: This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon again, to see if it should be made permanent, if something should be changed or if it should be removed. If removed, currently running games immediately generate DM credits as if it was ended. These (and previously saved credits) may be spent be spent according to these rules, but no more credits are gained after the system is removed.
Third Proposal:
After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure. Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall". Credits spent must be approved by a Judge, either in the General thread or at the end of the adventure thread where he gained the credits. DM credits should be documented similar to XP.
Credit can normally only be spent while not on an adventure. Players on an adventure can petition their DM to allow using DM credits but he has no obligation to allow its use. Even if he allows it, he may limit spending as he sees fit. Also, spending must still be approved by a judge (see above).
DM credits spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains 25 XP per ECL per DM credit spent.
Money - the PC gains 50 GP per ECL per DM credit
Craft points - the PC gains 5 CP per ECL per DM credit
Starting a new character - When starting a new character, each 40 DM credits means you can start at a higher ECL with all benefits.
Point rewards is limted to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 200XP, 400 GP or 400 CP by one DM credit. Also, when spending DM credits for XP or starting a new character, you can never exceed the experience of the highest PC in LEW.
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification gets no reward for that adventure. If a DM quits an adventure prematurely but gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) she receives full credit up until the point she quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point on in time. If an adventure ends due to player dropout, the DM gets full credit.
Implementation: This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon again, to see if it should be made permanent, if something should be changed or if it should be removed. If removed, currently running games immediately generate DM credits as if it was ended. These (and previously saved credits) may be spent be spent according to these rules, but no more credits are gained after the system is removed.
Second Proposal: After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc). It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall".
1 DM credit spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure. If applied to a new character and it would bring the character up a level, that character can start at the higher level (or with a Level Adjusted race or template) with all benefits.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.
Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.
A DM which abandons an adventure gets no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure. A DM that quits an adventure gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) should receive full credit up until the point he quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point.
This applies to currently running adventures as well as new ones, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon, to see if it should be made permanent or removed.
First Proposal:After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc).
1 DM credit spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - each credit spent gives the PC X craft points per character level.
The judge for the adventure is the final call on the reward allocation. Player satisfaction and DM activity should infuence the decision. Time may be deducted for long periods of idle time, DM's doing an extraordinary job could get a 25% reward and so on.
A DM which abandons an adventure should get no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure.
To make implementation easy, this applies to currently running adventures as well, but time spent is only counted as the time after January 1st 2006.
----
I looked at the Treasure Table in the DMG when deciding the amount of gold gained. 20 DM credits will give a level 1 character 1000 XP or 1000 GP. For characters over level 5, the gold reward declines compared to XP reward.
I know too little about craft points to suggest a suitable reward, but I hope that Bront or someone else that knows it inside & out can suggest a value for X.
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GnomeWorks02-16-06, 02:53 PM
While I am all for encouraging new DMs to come to LEW, I have serious issues with the metagame-ness of this proposal.
I admit that LEW has a flood of players and a drought of DMs, but I think we need to find other ways to bring in DMs.
While I won't throw in my official vote (as I'd like to see some discussion first), I'm going to say right now that I am most definitely leaning strongly towards a "no," unless someone can convince me otherwise.
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rln02-16-06, 03:18 PM
Since the reward only happens when a character is in between adventures, I do not see the metagaming issue as a big one. The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 03:27 PM
Since the reward only happens when a character is in between adventures, I do not see the metagaming issue as a big one. The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
indeed, its important to remember that you can gain XP for encounters and challanges so far below your CR that you are in no real danger. While these would make a boring adventure, I would have no problem explaining "extra" XP for any of my characters, whether it be the bard/ranger "private investigator" having tracked and rescued a small child lost in the woods, the gladiator wanna-be sparring with locals on a wager or the clerical do gooder risking her health to help curtail a possible plague brought into the dock quarter by a returning sailor.
Think of it like the begining of the Indiana Jones movies, where he is finishing up an adventure that wasn't quite interesting enough to be a movie before this "real" one begins.
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El Jefe02-16-06, 08:26 PM
While I am all for encouraging new DMs to come to LEW, I have serious issues with the metagame-ness of this proposal.Ok, how about a counterproposal?
Metagame problem = Metagame solution
Individuals may have 3 active PCs at any one time in LEW. Additional characters may not be introduced unless one of the 3 dies or is permanently retired. Active DM's may introduce a 4th character, but that character may only earn XP while the DM is actively running another game. Of course, none of a DM's characters may earn XP for participating in the DM's game.
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 08:35 PM
Ok, how about a counterproposal?
Metagame problem = Metagame solution
Individuals may have 3 active PCs at any one time in LEW. Additional characters may not be introduced unless one of the 3 dies or is permanently retired. Active DM's may introduce a 4th character, but that character may only earn XP while the DM is actively running another game. Of course, none of a DM's characters may earn XP for participating in the DM's game.
eh, the problem is that by choosing to take the time to run a game, I'm taking time away from being able to actively pursue my existing characters' developments. At one point I was runnign three adventures at once and besides burning out, certainly couldn't also kep all my PCs active. The orriginal proposal would highly encourage me to run more adventures and use my DMing credits to (for example) bring Kirin up to the level where she could pursue her new calling as a lycanthrope/Feral hunter/healer rather than mechanically running her through adventures of little real interest to that character just for the xp. Win/win. At this point the privilege of trying to introduce another character while running adventures would hold little interest.
A compromise perhaps, that the DM could only apply his or her credits to a character by writing a short account of the activities which earned the gold/xp/etc and contributes to the background flavor of the living world?
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Knight Otu02-16-06, 08:46 PM
Plus, not everyone has three characters. Allowing a 4th character does nothing to encourage players with one or two characters to DM - and those would likely have more time to do so.
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Rae ArdGaoth02-16-06, 08:56 PM
I think it's a nice idea to reward DMs somehow, but I agree with GW: it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
I think DMs should be rewarded, but the argument to "attract" DMs doesn't really hold. Sure, I DMed a game, and sure, if there was a reward, I'd take it. But the type of DMs "attracted" by the reward would just be throwing a game together. And the reward itself isn't that huge. A few hundred XP. Not a great incentive, but possibly an appropriate sized reward.
That being said, my opinion doesn't change. DMs definitely shouldn't get an in-game reward for DMing. And I can't really think of an out-of-game reward.
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DerHauptman02-16-06, 08:59 PM
I for one think this is a great I idea, it rewards the stewards of the games and will encourage people to DM all round.
Agreed though that bad DM's might just try and wing something to get stuff for a character but bad games can happen anyways so its not too much risk.
I was thinking about making something instead of sitting arround but wanna play here in a game first. Where are the rules for submission of a vignetee or adventure? I think I saw them somewhere?
DerHauptman - Out!
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Knight Otu02-16-06, 09:10 PM
That would be this thread.
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Kahuna Burger02-16-06, 09:16 PM
I think it's a nice idea to reward DMs somehow, but I agree with GW: it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
you only get your XP if you are there playing your character, you can't just give it to a DM to npc in his adventure and take your leveled up PC after. So ALL in game rewards are for real world activities - posting and contributing to the game.
There are plenty of pen and paper groups with rotating DM duties where the PC of the current DM gets half XP or other bonuses for when they come back. So I think the assertion that such a scenerio "has no place" is innapropriate to a useful discussion.
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Manzanita02-16-06, 10:01 PM
I must admit I find this idea intriguing. There are a lot of us who DM, and all DMs have PCs, so we'd see frequent rewards off this proposal. I think rln and KB have offered good explanations of where those rewards would come from. It might be nice to be able to develop your PC in that way. It would encourage you to enrich your PC by adding forgotten aunts and non-DMed side quests.
As for fulfilling its stated goal of attracting DMs, I'm uncertain. Most of us DM for pleasure, but perhaps a little carrot like this would encourage someone to try DMing, who would otherwise feel intimidated.
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Rystil Arden02-16-06, 10:04 PM
It would encourage you to enrich your PC by adding forgotten aunts and non-DMed side quests.
That would actually be a really neat idea. So to take Zaeryl as a random example, Zaeryl is trying to awaken his innate power and shape his mortal form to withstand it. This would allow me to add in a little backstory about him awakening more power throguh some sort of action or exploration without forcing a GM to run a game about that.
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Roger02-16-06, 11:08 PM
it's an in game reward for real-world activities, and thus really has no place.
By the by, that's exactly how the current XP reward for real-world months of game play works.
Cheers,
Roger
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doghead02-17-06, 12:41 AM
Initially I was a little sceptical of the idea. The whole in game rewards for real life activity thing didn't sit well. The idea of Jaan just jumping a level (assuming that he wass close enough to do so) seemed odd if not tied to some in game events.
The player can easily explain such a boost as an inheritance from an old aunt (gold), a good week of robbery (gold), an insight gained while sitting in a library (experience), training (experience) or just plain, hard work (craft points).
This makes sense. I actually had Jaan travelling back to Rivenblight in search of his lost companions. It was really only a time filler to explain his non-adventuring. But rln is right, between adventures, things can happen.
The idea of being allowed a forth character doesn't really appeal to me. I have only one, and if I am DM'ing, I don't really have time or desire to take on another, let alone three. If I wasn't running an adventure, running another couple of characters would be no problem.
The idea is starting to appeal, and ideas about what Jaan could do between adventures are starting to come to me.
Two questions.
Who would oversee the between adventure bonus activity (perhaps we need a better term for this). Several options come to mind; the judge oversseing the DM's adventure, the judge oversseeing the character's last adventure, or Bront as RDI and between adventure monitor.
For those LEWians who are not running an adventure, would something along these lines encourage you to do so?
thotd
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Jdvn102-17-06, 12:50 AM
I wonder if this proposal would actually result in more GMs. I, for one, would not be more inclined to run a game were this passed.
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doghead02-17-06, 02:19 AM
I can't really say how this would have affected my decision to run an adventure.
But personally, given Jaan's painfully slow progress (his first two adventures died), it would be nice to think that by running a lively game, I can also do something towards edging Jaan onwards towards new things like Turn Undead and Spells.
thotd
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Salix02-17-06, 02:20 AM
I thought I would chime in on this thread. I have been putting together (slowly) a short vignette ever since my character was approved and I saw the big glut of PCs in the RDI. I originally had no intention of running a game, but it seems like there are a lot of new people just waiting around. I thought maybe I could get four of them out the door. When I came to this conclusion I realized that I wouldn't get to start playing my second character until the vignette was over. I don't think this would attract me to trying to DM. I do think the rewards are pretty attractive for someone who doesn't run a lot of characters and wants to bring one in at a higher level. I noticed a lot of the other adventures ran on ENworld start with characters being generated above 1st level. Many of our characters backgrounds suggest they should start above 1st level also. In general, I don't think this is such a bad idea, but I'm not sure if it will result in more DMs. I think that the people who do DM a lot will get rewarded for it a little more. Maybe we'd see more PrCs sooner.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 02:27 AM
I do think the rewards are pretty attractive for someone who doesn't run a lot of characters and wants to bring one in at a higher level. I noticed a lot of the other adventures ran on ENworld start with characters being generated above 1st level. Many of our characters backgrounds suggest they should start above 1st level also.
That's actually rather brilliant--it is a much more elegant way to handle someone who wants to play a character with a lewvel adjustment than the current system of 'Make a dummy character -> Retire -> Make the LA character'
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Jdvn102-17-06, 02:30 AM
I can't really say how this would have affected my decision to run an adventure. Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 03:09 AM
Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?actually, this would strongly encourage me to run more adventures (even go back to a couple at a time) rather than stop after my current one ends, so I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:18 AM
I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.
Possibly so, but I we can't just assume that this will attract GMs. Maybe if we had a poll or just had people post whether or not this would attract them to GM or not. Let's find out if this actually would fulfill it's stated purpose.If it doesn't, then why would we do it at all? I think that's an important question to discuss.
If the proposer wants to propose some other purpose, that's fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 03:22 AM
It might be worth dealing with DMs running more than one adventure simutaneously. Based on the premise of the proposal, said DM should accrue 'DM points' for each adventure run. But could all these be used on the same PC? Should multiple DM runs be restricted to multiple PCs? And just how many games is Rystil running now anyway?
Rystil's point about using these XPs to start a LA PC is a good one, I think. DM points should be adjudicated by the judge on said DM's adventure, I would think. And I think it should be pretty straightforward. As long as the DM posts in a month, he/she would get the point, like how it is with 'time spent' awards for PCs. I'm opposed to giving the judge arbitrary control of how many DM points are awarded. I think that would impose undue stress on the DM/Judge relationship.
It is an interesting proposal, and has received no 'yes' votes thus far. I think its good to leave it up awhile and get some more feedback.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 03:25 AM
And just how many games is Rystil running now anyway? I can answer this one: I'm technically running two adventures now
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:37 AM
A DM which abandons an adventure should get no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure.What about a DM whose players abandon an adventure? What about a DM that posts 1/week? Should he get less than a DM who posts 4/day? Else, wouldn't you encourage DMs to slow the pace of their games? What's the minimum he'd have to post in month? Would a minimum post rate encourage throw-away posts?
Should you encourage levelling a character who hasn't been on any adventures?
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 03:39 AM
What about a DM whose players abandon an adventure? What about a DM that posts 1/week? Should he get less than a DM who posts 4/day? Else, wouldn't you encourage DMs to slow the pace of their games?
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:40 AM
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.Which seems like a problem to me.
Note the edit.
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Erekose1302-17-06, 03:57 AM
I am with KB on this one, I think that I'd like some small reward for spending far more time Dming than playing (thats why I play 8-10 characters at a time, but only run 1 game) might be a good insentive to keep at it . Not that I'd be put off running games if this proposal was not accepted, I do enjoy it.
But yes, a system would have to be in place that would allow the judges to easily allocate these rewards so that DMs can't cry foul. Perhaps a minor formula that involves post counts on a DMs thread. I use something similar in giving players rping experience in my game (not that my players have seen it yet cause they havent rested once).
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 04:19 AM
In my mind, there are two questions to be answered:
1. Will this proposal increase the number of DMs?
I do not see how this proposal could keep people from DMing. KB has already said that she would be more likely to DM and DM more adventures with a system like this in place. X+1 > X so that works for me. I think I would be somewhat more likely to continue DMing with this in place, so make it X+1.5 > X.
2. Is this proposal "fair"?
This is a question of what gives a player the "right" to have a high level PC in Enworld. Currently that "right" is only given to players who have participated in lots of adventures. Personally, I think that if a person has been an active member of LEW and successfully runs several adventures much to the delight of many players, that gives them as much "right" to a high level PC as a player has for participating in several adventures. In fact in my mind, it gives them more "right" to it. For example, Patlin and I started at about the same time. He has run 5+ excellent adventures, and largely because of his efforts I have a 4th level PC. His highest PC, Tor, is 3rd level. If his character was given a credit for his DM/judging duties and that bumped Tor up to 5th level and closer the Dragon Desciple class he was created for, that would be just fine with me. I don't "deserve" to have a higher level character than Patlin. Similarly, if somone wants to DM for the next 5 years and then introduce a brand new minotaur PC with an ECL of 10, that's perfectly fine with me. In my mind, they've earned it.
Defining what gives a player the "right" to a high level PC is a community decision. There is no "right" answer. If it makes most people uncomfortable then I say leave it. If most people are fine with it, I know it will increase the future DM pool by at least one (KB).
It is also worth noting that as the proposal stands, a character to spends time in an adventure that dries up (DM leaves or whatever) receives the same experience as a person who is DMing a successful adventure over the same time period. We are not talking huge rewards here.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 04:32 AM
It seems so based on the proposed system--what is rewarded most strongly is a GM who runs a large number of very short adventures very slowly, as they need to finish it eventually to actually retrieve the points.
Regardless, I think we're stuck with it. I don't want to see the judges, or anyone else, passing judgement on a DMs adventure and rewarding his/her PCs accordingly. No one wants to be 'judged.' This would be intimidating to new DMs, the very DMs we're trying to attract. (not to mention more experienced DMs
) If this proposal passes, I think DM points need to be awarded on a set basis, with very little room for variation.Look at it this way. Currently, there is no concrete reward incentive for a DM to complete an adventure at all. At least if this passes there will be an incentive to complete your adventure in some fashion. Personally, I don't see DMs looking at this in a calculating manner and structuring their adventures to take advantage of it. Of course, I could be wrong...
If this Job System passes, then PCs can start to earn XPs by sitting in the RDI. This could potentially change the dynamic of adventuring. It's always been the players' choice when to abandon a stalled adventure. If the Players think they can do more than just chat in the RDI, they may be more inclined to shut slow and stalled adventures down, which would counteract a DM's desire to exploit this proposal.
I think Slagmortar has a good point. Some of our most prolific DMs, such as KO & Patlin, haven't had great success moving their PCs up. I certainly wouldn't think it unfair for their PCs to have gained some minor benefit from the immense benefit these two have given to other PCs through their DMing.
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Salix02-17-06, 04:39 AM
That's actually rather brilliant--it is a much more elegant way to handle someone who wants to play a character with a lewvel adjustment than the current system of 'Make a dummy character -> Retire -> Make the LA character'
RA- I'm giving you my wife's email, it's about time she heard that about something that came out of my mouth.
On a more serious note, does anyone really think this would change their DM behaviour? This proposal seems to be a way of compensating people who DM. I would think if they wanted to gain XPs in an expediant way, instead of dragging out short adventures they would just play a character in one. It seems to me that characters can get a large amount of XPs from sitting in an adventure that is being abandoned, but the majority of their XPs are coming from in game action. I don't think getting time awards from DMing is going to push a character any faster than playing would.
If someone were to post a poll, there should probably be an ooc mention of it in the RDI. The people who are supposed to be swayed into taking a turn at DM aren't replying to this thread. It would be nice to hear from folks who haven't DMed yet.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 04:44 AM
On a more serious note, does anyone really think this would change their DM behaviour? This proposal seems to be a way of compensating people who DM. I would think if they wanted to gain XPs in an expediant way, instead of dragging out short adventures they would just play a character in one. It seems to me that characters can get a large amount of XPs from sitting in an adventure that is being abandoned, but the majority of their XPs are coming from in game action. I don't think getting time awards from DMing is going to push a character any faster than playing would.
It probably wouldn't be an issue for single adventures. The imaginable broken scenario is a GM who simultaneously takes on the task of running very short vignette adventures for maybe two or three characters each every time a character appears in the RDI looking for an adventure. They run perhaps ten adventures at once that have only a few encounters but nevertheless take a month to complete due to slowing them down. Then they spend the points. This would be guaranteed to level up their character every two months from GMing alone
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Jdvn102-17-06, 04:47 AM
Look at it this way. Currently, there is no concrete reward incentive for a DM to complete an adventure at all. At least if this passes there will be an incentive to complete your adventure in some fashion. Personally, I don't see DMs looking at this in a calculating manner and structuring their adventures to take advantage of it. Of course, I could be wrong...Well, whether or not a DM plans for it, sometimes a he's not thinking about his game. In SotD, KO has had to take some time off from DMing every once in a while. The game has had many full stops (to the point where we need to be reminded of what we're doing and why, and player(s?) have dropped). On the other hand, in Immortality Awakens, there have been a few pauses, but nothing to the extent of SotD.
Keeping the proposal as-is says that it's okay, or even beneficial, to have games with stops. There's no incentive to keep a game chugging along (in fact, there's incentive to not go as quickly as possible).
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
That way, you encourage things to keep moving and also give incentive to run games.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:00 AM
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
That way, you encourage things to keep moving and also give incentive to run games.
That would be pretty cool too, but I can't really think of many perks for 'high-level' GMs. Right now I can think of only two, and both are probably unfair to allow:
1) Psionic Jedi Mind Trick--you 'trick' the GM of the adventure containing your character into giving some Psionic treasure because your character is psionic. Because I haven't seen a GM do it yet voluntarily.
2) Easy Proposals--Your proposals now need only two Judges to vote 'Yes' before they pass.
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:04 AM
The imaginable broken scenario is a GM who simultaneously takes on the task of running very short vignette adventures for maybe two or three characters each every time a character appears in the RDI looking for an adventure.
The adventures still run through the judges so the judges should probably start to catch on around adventure 8 or so. 6 if they've had their morning coffee.
I'd prefer a system where the DM gets a number of "DM XP" or "DM Points" at a rate of (max xp given/10) or somesuch. When a DM gets 1000 DMp or DMxp, then he gains a "DM level" and gets some benefits.
This would give DM's incentive to award more experience to their players.
The advantage of the current proposal is that it is simple and deterministic. You know what you are getting and its easy to calculate. A formula that is a little more complicated, but not too much is:
[#real time months] or [total #posts in the thread divided by 100], whichever is fewer.
This assumes that the average thread should have a total of around 3 posts per day by all parties (players and DM). You can't get more points by never posting and there is no way to increase you points beyond what is proposed in the thread.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:08 AM
This would give DM's incentive to award more experience to their players. But experience is awared strictly by CR. You can't artificially boost it. It encourages DMs to run through their encounters faster, and pick up the pace of the game in general.
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:10 AM
There's also roleplay bonuses, bonuses for posting, artificially inflated challenge ratings ...
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:10 AM
That would be pretty cool too, but I can't really think of many perks for 'high-level' GMs. Right now I can think of only two, and both are probably unfair to allow:A long time ago, I saw a system that used "GM level" as well as "Player level" to give some meta-game bonuses. Like, you could get minor bonuses to certain rolls at certain times (you'd get one-use cards and you'd declare you're using your card).
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:13 AM
But experience is awared strictly by CR. You can't artificially boost it. It encourages DMs to run through their encounters faster, and pick up the pace of the game in general.
It isn't strict. While KO told me that I am to give out full and exact XP for CR (rather than my usual cutting in thirds and using the rest for bonus awards), he also encouraged me to make those same bonus awards on top of the CR without allocating them from the normal XP. Also, there are some simple ways to change the XP around. For instance, I plan on giving you guys an EL of - 1 for this dragon because it was sleeping when you starting whacking on it, and you hit it for 77 damage before it could cast Mage Armour and fly off to equip itself. Thus, the fight was unrepresentatively easy, since it started off missing most of its HP.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:13 AM
There's also roleplay bonuses, bonuses for posting, artificially inflated challenge ratings ...... I've never been in a LEW game that has roleplaying bonuses, and posting bonuses. I can't speak for the artificially inflated challenge ratings, but that's done by-the-book too...
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:16 AM
It isn't strict. While KO told me that I am to give out full and exact XP for CR (rather than my usual cutting in thirds and using the rest for bonus awards), he also encouraged me to make those same bonus awards on top of the CR without allocating them from the normal XP.So, with Judge approval/recommendation.Also, there are some simple ways to change the XP around. For instance, I plan on giving you guys an EL of - 1 for this dragon because it was sleeping when you starting whacking on it, and you hit it for 77 damage before it could cast Mage Armour and fly off to equip itself. Thus, the fight was unrepresentatively easy, since it started off missing most of its HP.And lowering an EL (fair reason, I might add).
And don't game Judges have a say in XP allocation?
I'm not sure I see a problem, though.
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doghead02-17-06, 05:17 AM
Here's what I'm trying to say: If the point of this is to attract GMs (as stated in the first sentence of the OP), it fails. So what's the point of this?
Actually, thats not quite what I said. I just said that I couldn't say how it would have affected my descision to run my first adventure. Which is a little different from saying it wouldn't have affected my decision.
I don't see why the credits should be only awarded at the successful conclusion of an adventure. Its not that way for the character's In Play XP awards. I think DM's should be able to cash in their credits whenever they have a character they wish to use the credit on who is between adventures. This would mean that there is no real incentive to run short adventures.
If an adventure dies due to lost players, the DM still earns something. If a DM, after a periood of running an adventure, is forced to withdraw due to RL issues, again, so long as they give notice and do what they can to help with the handover or wrapping up, they should earn something.
I also think that DM's should be able to use the credits for any of their characters as they see fit. If they run multiple adventures they should be able to use all of the credit for one character. Of course, the between adventures proviso for characters would apply.
Of course there is the potential for abuse, just as there is the potential for players to park characters in an adventure and coast, contributing little but getting the rewards. But its a lot of work, making a proposal and running even a minimal adventure for the sake of a relatively small reward. But if this problem arise, the judges can handle them on a case to case basis.
Ultimately, what I like about the system isit allows players to take a little control over their characters development. Players can't contol the adventures that their character's are in. If they get unlucky with slow adventures that stalls alot, the player can do little about it. But with this system, people can run an adventure or two of their own (helping keep the RDI turning over) and do something to ensure that their character keeps moving forwards.
thotd
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:25 AM
I'm not sure I see a problem, though.
I agree that it's not likely to cause a problem. I guess I just like a system that is hardcapped by something easy to calculate and impossible to inflate like real time. I also like a system that rewards a game not stalling.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:26 AM
Actually, thats not quite what I said. I just said that I couldn't say how it would have affected my descision to run my first adventure. Which is a little different from saying it wouldn't have affected my decision.I mostly wanted to get the issue out there. I know that XP isn't going to make me want to run a game more, and that I haven't run a game has nothing to do with incentive. I like running games and I haven't had time to do it. I didn't know how many like-minded people there were, so I wanted the question to be proposed.
Ultimately, what I like about the system isit allows players to take a little control over their characters development. Players can't contol the adventures that their character's are in. If they get unlucky with slow adventures that stalls alot, the player can do little about it. But with this system, people can run an adventure or two of their own (helping keep the RDI turning over) and do something to ensure that their character keeps moving forwards.Can you use DM Points to level a character that's in an adventure? If so, could he level mid-adventure? Mid-battle? Wouldn't this affect the GM of that game?
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:29 AM
I agree that it's not likely to cause a problem. I guess I just like a system that is hardcapped by something easy to calculate and impossible to inflate like real time. I also like a system that rewards a game not stalling.I'm not sure why the DMxp system isn't easy to calculate. I suppose it's possible to inflate xp (I'm not sure how), but it'll likely be very difficult. And if it ends up being too easy, judges (and LEW in general) could be more strict about XP allocation (an estimate encounters, CR, and XP should be given beforehand).
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:32 AM
I thought of another potential problem with an award tied to the XP given to players. A DM has 5 players. 4 of them post twice a day. The other posts 50 times a day. The DM can also post 50 times a day. So the DM blows through most of the adventure with only the one player responding so that they can get more encounters in.
I have no problem with a DM saying, "I only want players that can post 50 times a day." at the beginning of his/her adventure. However, if that's not what the other players thought they were signing up for, I think they would feel jipped. I know I would. The DM could even be somewhat courteous and allow everyone to post their combat actions, but the 4 characters who can only post twice a day never get to roleplay out of combat.
With that, I'm off to bed. Thanks for the discussions!
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doghead02-17-06, 05:33 AM
Can you use DM Points to level a character that's in an adventure? If so, could he level mid-adventure? Mid-battle? Wouldn't this affect the GM of that game?
From my understanding of it, no. It can only be applied to a character while they are between adventures. Some form of descriptive explaination needs to be provided (and run past the judges) I believe.
Someone made a good point about who is not posting here. I didn't really pay any attention to the Discussion and Proposal threads before I started DM'ing. An ooc post to the rdi was suggested. Perhaps thats a good idea.
thotd
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 05:36 AM
With a system based on posts and dates, I can objectively look at the first post in a thread, last post in a thread, and # posts in a thread and determine the experience award for the DM in 30 seconds. This without reading a single post in the thread itself. It's obvious to even a casual observer that the award was done correctly. That's all I meant by easy.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:42 AM
I thought of another potential problem with an award tied to the XP given to players. A DM has 5 players. 4 of them post twice a day. The other posts 50 times a day. The DM can also post 50 times a day. So the DM blows through most of the adventure with only the one player responding so that they can get more encounters in.
I have no problem with a DM saying, "I only want players that can post 50 times a day." at the beginning of his/her adventure. However, if that's not what the other players thought they were signing up for, I think they would feel jipped. I know I would. The DM could even be somewhat courteous and allow everyone to post their combat actions, but the 4 characters who can only post twice a day never get to roleplay out of combat.I understand this is meant to be an extreme case, but I'm not sure it's realistic, either. There are few people with which, and few situations where, you could go through the entire roleplaying portion with just one character.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:44 AM
With a system based on posts and dates, I can objectively look at the first post in a thread, last post in a thread, and # posts in a thread and determine the experience award for the DM in 30 seconds. This without reading a single post in the thread itself. It's obvious to even a casual observer that the award was done correctly. That's all I meant by easy.Gotcha. But since a judge and a DM would be watching the game the entire time anyway, and both are keeping track of such things as XP, then it's about as easy to keep a running tally and divide by 10 at the end of the day.
Maybe not for the casual observer, but I'm not sure XP and DMxp would be important to a casual observer.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 05:47 AM
From my understanding of it, no. It can only be applied to a character while they are between adventures. Some form of descriptive explaination needs to be provided (and run past the judges) I believe.Well, since you like the idea of controlling a character, I was wondering what you thought about being able to apply DMxp to a character that's already in a game. I can see where it might cause problems, but I don't think it's a bad idea, in theory. I might want to ask for the other DM's approval on a good time to apply the DMxp. I would get that other DMs would be somewhat lenient on this.
Someone made a good point about who is not posting here. I didn't really pay any attention to the Discussion and Proposal threads before I started DM'ing. An ooc post to the rdi was suggested. Perhaps thats a good idea.Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
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Bront02-17-06, 06:41 AM
actually, this would strongly encourage me to run more adventures (even go back to a couple at a time) rather than stop after my current one ends, so I'd say any assumption that "it fails" based on a whole 18 hours of feedback is significantly premature.
Ditto.
I think this is a VERY good idea. Doesn't have to be a huge reward, but some reward would be good.
50 XP / month, or perhaps better yet, 25 XP per month per player.
or gold at about the same rate.
or even craft points at about the same rate.
I think it would encourage GMs who also play here to run more here.
I think it would allow for someone to start off at a higher level/ect with a new character (Build up 1000 xp credit, then start a new character), and if you limit it to being recieved only when characters are not in an adventure, it won't throw any current adventures off. Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way
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doghead02-17-06, 06:52 AM
Well, since you like the idea of controlling a character, I was wondering what you thought about being able to apply DMxp to a character that's already in a game. I can see where it might cause problems, but I don't think it's a bad idea, in theory. I might want to ask for the other DM's approval on a good time to apply the DMxp. I would get that other DMs would be somewhat lenient on this.
I would have reservations about allowing it to happen while the character in question was mid-adventure. I'm sure most DM's could manage it. What concerns me would be how the sudden improvement is explained in game terms. If its down between adventures, a little story could be created to expain the improvement. For example, in Jaans case, it might be a little journey at the request of the temple of Verdante. Thus the additional experience could be explained.
Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
A post in the discussion thread would be a good idea. But alot of newer people don't necessary visit it much. I am going to make a little announcement in my adventure thread, although most of my players have checked in here already.
Again, I think allowing credits to be redeemed at the conclusion of an adventure is not a good idea. It could encourage hasty adventures. And timing could be a big problem. Getting an adventure to conclude at the same time a character is between adventures could be tricky. If you miss the window, it may be ages before you get another.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 06:53 AM
Ditto.
I think this is a VERY good idea. Doesn't have to be a huge reward, but some reward would be good.
50 XP / month, or perhaps better yet, 25 XP per month per player.
or gold at about the same rate.
or even craft points at about the same rate.
I think it would encourage GMs who also play here to run more here.
I think it would allow for someone to start off at a higher level/ect with a new character (Build up 1000 xp credit, then start a new character), and if you limit it to being recieved only when characters are not in an adventure, it won't throw any current adventures off. Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way
)Hey FoH better not die
Lasair is still there, but there just doesn't seem to be anything she can do until we find a better suspect --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salix02-17-06, 06:55 AM
Or, maybe a discussion in the discussion thread? A link to tell them to come look at this? This is a pretty big idea, so making sure everyone is involved is likely a good idea.
I have mostly seen the same folks posting to the general discussion thread that have been posting here. If your objective is to bring in newer people I really think you have to direct them to this thread in the RDI.
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Salix02-17-06, 07:03 AM
Ditto.
Points would be redeamable once your adventure is complete (or died due to a lack of players, I have a game heading that way
)A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:18 AM
I have mixed feelings about this. At first I felt uneasy with character benefits derived from something in which the character wasn't involved. But I felt the same way when I first heard about roleplay-based XP bonuses, something totally foreign to my 1/e experience, and I've made my peace with them. XP is an abstraction anyway. I'd be opposed to awarding treasure to characters based on their players' other activities, but an intangible such as XP is different. I would still apply the same principle I've argued in the past regarding time-based XP: keep it small enough that it doesn't become what principally drives character advancement.
I also think, if we do go this route, we should make it possible to save up reserves of XP credits and apply them to a not-yet created character. That way, a player who has contributed enough to LEW can create a LA-race character without having to retire another character (assuming (s)he isn't at the 3-character limit).
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:21 AM
A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
Alternates, as in new characters replacing old? Some adventures have re-recruited midstream when there's a plausible in-character way to do it. But if the party is deep in a dungeon far removed from civilization, don't count on new people just showing up to join the expedition. Generally abandoned characters become NPCs for the duration of the adventure, or until there is a plausible time to write in their departure.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 07:27 AM
Alternates, as in new characters replacing old? Some adventures have re-recruited midstream when there's a plausible in-character way to do it. But if the party is deep in a dungeon far removed from civilization, don't count on new people just showing up to join the expedition. Generally abandoned characters become NPCs for the duration of the adventure, or until there is a plausible time to write in their departure.
Yup. IA has had people leave, and Dagummit the dwarf became an NPC under my control after he left, causing him to recruit more adventurers, plus he brought another NPC to the inn who wound up starting another adventure.
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doghead02-17-06, 07:34 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
M3: Assassin's Knot. 6 months. 975 posts. 160/month.
E1: Tomb of Chaos. 3 months. 478 posts. 160/month.
Hired Hands. 7 months. 741 posts. 105/month.
Ransom for Retirement. 3 months. 208 posts. 70/month.
Fort Knocks. 13 months. 524 posts. 40/month.
Slaves of the Dragon. 11 months. 762 posts. 70/month.
DoS: Azaroth Alone. <1 month. 9 posts. --------
Clash of Earth and Sea. 6 months. 494 posts. 80/month.
IA: A teacher for Laynie. 2 months. 297 posts. 145/month.
Immortality Awakens II. 3 months. 412 posts. 137/month.
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.
Short and Sweet. 2 months. 143 posts. 70/month.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 07:36 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
M3: Assassin's Knot. 6 months. 975 posts. 160/month.
E1: Tomb of Chaos. 3 months. 478 posts. 160/month.
Hired Hands. 7 months. 741 posts. 105/month.
Ransom for Retirement. 3 months. 208 posts. 70/month.
Fort Knocks. 13 months. 524 posts. 40/month.
Slaves of the Dragon. 11 months. 762 posts. 70/month.
DoS: Azaroth Alone. <1 month. 9 posts. --------
Clash of Earth and Sea. 6 months. 494 posts. 80/month.
IA: A teacher for Laynie. 2 months. 297 posts. 145/month.
Immortality Awakens II. 3 months. 412 posts. 137/month.
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.
Short and Sweet. 2 months. 143 posts. 70/month.
You missed Immortality Awakens I--it had even more posts per month and was the max thread length, like 1200 posts
Checked it--1225 / 6 = 204.166666
Also, IA had a several-hundred-post-long vignette for Thurgan and Krug when they were joining up with the others.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:48 AM
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.That's exactly how I feel about it as well.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:49 AM
Out of curiousity, I went over the adventure threads and counted time played and posts. It was fairly hasty, so apologies if I made any mistakes. I just wanted to get an idea of how things stood in this regard. The results varied a little more than I thought.
D1: Ashins Commision 2 months. 403 posts. 200/month.
...
M3: Eanos Alone. 6 months. 94 posts. 15/month.... Wow. If I didn't like the monthly way before, I really don't like it now.
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rln02-17-06, 07:56 AM
Wow, I didn't expect this amount fo feedback in just a day
Regarding DMs stalling an adventure: Doesn't this apply to players as well, given the system is the same? Anyway, this is one of the reasons judges should be allowed to make a different call, though I agree it should be extraordinary things that call for any penalties. Being on hold for a month during christmas breaks, school work etc is quite normal. I think just the fact the line about judges making the final call would be a natural deterrent to "gold diggers".
Regarding running many adventures: If I'm not mistaken, you'd have to run one adventure for 20 months, or 5 adventures for 4 months to level up on PC, regardless of level. You could easily level up quicker by adventuring. Should the number of credits become a problem - set a "per year" limit.
Also, all adventures need to go be proposed to the judges before commencing. I think the fact that a DM is already running two or three games at a slow pace should be a reason to say no - not really because of her gaining a lot of DM credits, but because of the risk of DM burnout!
Regarding a fourth character: Well, this may be interesting for a few people, but I haven't even had the time to finish up my second character yet, let alone play it. Besides, I prefer to get more DM's into the game, not PC's
Regarding attracting DM's: With this little benefit, I would probably have considered proposing and running an adventure instead of having Ogrin roll his thumbs in the Tavern. My time likely doesn't allow me to both play & DM in LEW. Of course, I can't speak for everyone.
Regarding who would oversee the between adventure bonus activity: I think just a note in the end of the adventure itself (if the credits arespent immediately) or in the General thread (if they're spent later) would suffice. The number of adventures that end every week is still quite limited.
Regarding level adjustment: I originally did write that into the XP paragraph - spend the amount of credits needed to take a new character to the next level, and you can start that character at that level, with all the benefits. I removed it so the proposal wouldn't be too cluttered. It's easy to add back.
Regarding DM XP (Jdvn1): This means DM's would benefit more from running high-level adventures. My proposal gives the same benefit to everyone. And, if there is need for a high-level adventure, the DM's could offer a double reward for anyone running such a game.
Regarding DM levels: I have a hard time seeing metagame benefits for DM's. Besides, lets just hope we don't get PirateCat in here, or we'll have to start thinking about Epic DM levels quite soon
Regarding handover vs abandoning: I agree this should be dealt with as a successful conclusion. There has, however, been a few games which has ended just because the DM went away. I played in one of them.
An idea could be to evaluate this during 2006,see how it goes, and adjust it or vote on it in january 2007. No need to make it permanent from the beginning.
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rln02-17-06, 07:58 AM
... Wow. If I didn't like the monthly way before, I really don't like it now.
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
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doghead02-17-06, 08:12 AM
You missed Immortality Awakens I--it had even more posts per month and was the max thread length, like 1200 posts
Checked it--1225 / 6 = 204.166666
I wouldn't have dared. Actually, I just got tired of doing it, and figured a dozen was enough of a sample.
I did wonder about side adventures, or "alone" threads. But I just decided to count everything.
thotd.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:12 AM
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
I have no clue, is it? That wouldn't make it so bad. There's still quite a discrepancy, though.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 08:14 AM
I have no clue, is it? That wouldn't make it so bad. There's still quite a discrepancy, though.
It has a character name followed by alone, so it must be a breakoff thread with just the one player and the GM. So Fort Knocks is the slowest full game, at a rate of 1/5 the speed of the fastest game.
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rln02-17-06, 08:15 AM
It seems to be a break-out thread from M3: Assassin's Knot (6 months., 975 posts). If there should be a reward for number of posts, these kinds of threads will have to be included as well, I guess.
Number of posts also varies with a posting style. A DM that makes one long combat summary gets a lower reward, while a DM that posts in between each player action. I think the time spent is more important than how active the DM is. As long as a slow post rate isn't detrimental to the flow of the game, I do not see a problem. Some DMs/players may prefer a checking and posting 5-10 times a day, while I (who is based in Sweden) have a hard time keeping up when there's been just 5 posts during the night (which is daytime in the US).
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:24 AM
Regarding DM XP (Jdvn1): This means DM's would benefit more from running high-level adventures. My proposal gives the same benefit to everyone. And, if there is need for a high-level adventure, the DM's could offer a double reward for anyone running such a game.With the make-up of the EN World population, I'm not sure we have to worry about high level games so much. It is a graduated scale, though. But the DM XP proposal also means that DMs benefit faster from faster-paced games, and that's one of the things I'm driving at.
Is there a way to compromise the two? Maybe a xp/(level*10) formula?
I understand characters use the same monthly formula, but there's a reaon for that. If there wasn't a monthly xp bonus, then levelling would take forever since the games already take a really long time. The same argument doesn't apply to this. Their characters already benefit from a monthly xp bonus. The time it takes to gain a new level is already "fixed."
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Heckler02-17-06, 08:25 AM
Hello, new person here.
My two cents:
If there's a large surplus of players right now compared to GMs, looking at the RDI it seems to me the problem is that there is a large influx of NEW players. Please consider that if a bunch of us enjoy ourselves and stick around, the problem may solve itself overtime as some of us will start to DM. (Conversely, we might hate it and run away, also solving the problem
) Speaking for myself, any kind of DM reward system would have no affect on my decision to run something. What would influence my decision is whether or not I'm enjoying myself here. I've never played pbp before, but if I'm having fun I'll want to contribute back. I'll need to feel "comfortable." You all seem like perfectly nice people, but I need to spend some time here to make sure I "fit in."
I've played in other games/organizations before, and populations always fluxuate. You're in a place where you've got a bunch of newbies rushing in. Let us knock about for a while so we can figure this whole ENworld thing out. Then decide if there's a problem that needs fixing.
Again, just my two cents.
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rln02-17-06, 08:27 AM
With the make-up of the EN World population, I'm not sure we have to worry about high level games so much. It is a graduated scale, though. But the DM XP proposal also means that DMs benefit faster from faster-paced games, and that's one of the things I'm driving at.
Is there a way to compromise the two? Maybe a xp/(level*10) formula?
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
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orsal02-17-06, 08:28 AM
Hmm, isn't M3: Eanos alone a break-out thread ? As such it doesn't count as an adventure of its own...
Yes. Not only that, but the breakout threads lie dormant for some time while we're all together in the main thread, and then get reactivated when we split up. We're a bunch of investigators who spend the day in separate groups while pretending not to notice each other, then hook up secretly to exchange notes. So the posts/month figure is deceptive -- the time elapsed between the first and last post is no indicator of how much time the thread has actually been active.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:29 AM
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
Going from xp/10 to xp/(level*10) doesn't make things much more complicated.
Also, note my edit.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 08:33 AM
You all seem like perfectly nice people, but I need to spend some time here to make sure I "fit in."Most of us are so different, I'm not sure anyone "fits in" with anyone else. Look at Rystil's non-LEW games for example. They're very different from this. We also have people that have their own system or use tons of house rules in their own games. There's quite a variety here, and I think that's one of our strengths.
Let us knock about for a while so we can figure this whole ENworld thing out. Then decide if there's a problem that needs fixing.Come, learn! I don't think there's anything that needs fixing, we just come up with new ideas at odd intervals. We hope they make things better.
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Bront02-17-06, 08:44 AM
A tangent here, but does LEW utilize alternates? I think there's something like fifteen characters waiting in the RDI. A few fresh faces in an adventure might help it to completion. For the one or two people active its a pretty big bummer to have it shut down because the majority of the party gets busy with RL.
Wouldn't help, mostly because timeline wise, there is 1 day left till completion, and it takes a week to get from the RDI.
I'll finish it up one way or the other, I just was hoping to not have to drag everything along forcebly.
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Bront02-17-06, 08:54 AM
I have mixed feelings about this. At first I felt uneasy with character benefits derived from something in which the character wasn't involved. But I felt the same way when I first heard about roleplay-based XP bonuses, something totally foreign to my 1/e experience, and I've made my peace with them. XP is an abstraction anyway. I'd be opposed to awarding treasure to characters based on their players' other activities, but an intangible such as XP is different. I would still apply the same principle I've argued in the past regarding time-based XP: keep it small enough that it doesn't become what principally drives character advancement.
I also think, if we do go this route, we should make it possible to save up reserves of XP credits and apply them to a not-yet created character. That way, a player who has contributed enough to LEW can create a LA-race character without having to retire another character (assuming (s)he isn't at the 3-character limit).
As far as levelling mid-adventure: the discretion of the DM in charge of the character being given the XP. Some DMs do allow mid-adventure level-ups at reasonable times (typically overnight), and the same standard ought to be applied to levels gained through transferred XP as to levels gained by the character herself.
I play in a con based living game, and we reward GMs for running games with minimal XP awards. It's better than nothing, and prevents the "I don't want to GM because I can't play" scenerio, to a point.
Holding them is a given I think, for the reason you state, as well as others.
I would be weary about giving them mid adventure, because it could cause problems in an otherwise well balanced adventure by having one player suddently gain more experience or money. Hense making them wait to where a shift in power is much less an issue.
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Heckler02-17-06, 09:23 AM
There's quite a variety here, and I think that's one of our strengths.
Agreed
Come, learn! I don't think there's anything that needs fixing, we just come up with new ideas at odd intervals. We hope they make things better.
I didn't mean to indicate that I thought something was broken. I simply meant that regarding the player/DM ratio issue, maybe the best thing to do is nothing.
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El Jefe02-17-06, 01:29 PM
It seems to be a break-out thread from M3: Assassin's Knot (6 months., 975 posts). If there should be a reward for number of posts, these kinds of threads will have to be included as well, I guess.I think Eanos Alone is an excellent example of why a little intelligence would need to be applied to this, instead of blindly counting posts. It is a break-out from Assassin's Knot. But more relevant to this discussion is the reason for the very low rate of posts per month. Originally, Eanos Alone was started when the party decided to split up in order to investigate the town of Three Rings. The idea was that the townspeople wouldn't get wise to the fact that the party was working together. Eanos weht off and did his thing, and midway through the adventure, he rejoined the group. At that point, all posts pertaining to Eanos moved back to the main thread. Eanos Alone was effectively concluded, and lay dormant for a long time.
Recently, Eanos split from the party again to go off and run an errand. Manzanita had several options here. He could have kept everything in the main thread, and insisted everyone use spoiler blocks to keep the party's actions separate from Eanos's actions. Or, he could have started an Eanos Alone II thread. Instead, he chose to revive Eanos Alone, which is now two break-out threads stacked on top of each other with a long gap in between.Number of posts also varies with a posting style. A DM that makes one long combat summary gets a lower reward, while a DM that posts in between each player action. I think the time spent is more important than how active the DM is.I think the first Festival of Halina thread is a great example of this. Take a look at the posts per day for that one, and complare with Festival of Halina II: Adventurers Gone Wild. FoH was very lively and a lot of fun to participate in, but part of the reason for that was the amazing number of OoC posts. At times it was more of a chat session than an adventure. There have been several drop-outs in FoH II. The players that are left know each other a lot better, and both the IC and OoC posts have dropped off considerably.
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 01:58 PM
I'd rather say, "Keep it simple from the start, adjust if abused, remove if it doesn't help" than making a complicated rule from the start.
ditto. I could swear that a single poster in this thread has argued against this on the basis of it not changing the number of DMs and on the basis that it would inspire massive DMing fraud to game the system.
I think adventure approval would stop any ill intentioned over-DMing in its tracks, even if I imagined such silliness coming to pass. per month works for players, why not dms?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SlagMortar02-17-06, 02:48 PM
As the person who brought up counting posts, I never meant for that to be used in isolation. I suggested counting months and # posts/100 and using the lower. This expects a post rate of around 3 per day. There's no benefit to more than 3 per day. Even if there is an "off alone" thread, there should still be 3 posts per day in the main thread. Anyway, I still like the time based best.
-My 2 cp
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rln02-17-06, 02:57 PM
Agreed.
I'm going to add/clarify:
* allocation of credits for time spent is static, but judges can overrule it under special circumstances, such as extremely slow post rate, large intervals of idling and similar things.
* use of DM credits to add XP for new PC's to allow starting at higher levels/level adjustments
I'm not adding:
* rewards per post
* rewards per "XP delivered"
... as I see both of these as needlessly complicated. We can solve the problem if and when it becomes a problem.
I'm not sure if I should propose a vote on it, as it isn't a normal "rules add-on" (like a feat or PrC). I would however suggest a one-year test period, before it's put in permanently, since some people are a bit sceptic.
-- Rolf
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Velmont02-17-06, 03:26 PM
* rewards per "XP delivered"
I am against that one. DM might give more XP, and it would favor high level adventure over low level. Someone who runs an adventure for a single level 10 player would recieve more than someone who run a 1st level adventure for 4 persons. In long term, it might even kill LEW as new players will feel biased by that rule, as DM might decide to reiase the level of there adventure just to have a better reward.
I would rather go for time or post rather than XP or number of player.
Not number of player is I would liek to see more backgroudn oriented adventure, which would mainly be solo or small group adventures.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 03:28 PM
per month works for players, why not dms?As I said earlier, the same argument doesn't apply.
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Kahuna Burger02-17-06, 04:20 PM
As I said earlier, the same argument doesn't apply.
why not? a player may enter a character in an adventure he or she doesn't care so much about and just post once a week or so to stop from being bumped but contribute little to the adventure. The fact that you find the argument less compelling in one case is not the same as it not applying. (indeed I find it uncompelling in either case.)
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rln02-17-06, 04:26 PM
I would rather go for time or post rather than XP or number of player.
I think you missed the line where I said I wasn't adding that to the proposal?
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Velmont02-17-06, 04:32 PM
I think you missed the line where I said I wasn't adding that to the proposal?
At the number of post there have been in the last 24h, yeap, I've miss it and many othe rthing, but I wanted to tell my opinion on that.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 04:36 PM
At the number of post there have been in the last 24h, yeap, I've miss it and many othe rthing, but I wanted to tell my opinion on that.
Hey, 87 isn't that many posts for this many people--I've seen games with hundreds of posts in a day
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rln02-17-06, 04:48 PM
Updated proposal.
(At least noone thought it completely sucked the warts of a cane toads back yet)
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(See "Second proposal" in original post.
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Velmont02-17-06, 04:54 PM
Updated proposal.
Can you do it on the first post too. It make it easier to understand teh proposal. Every proposal should be like that, having teh updated proposal on the first post.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 05:13 PM
Wow. Quite a thread you've started rln.
Another way we might determine DM points would be by page. Say 1 DM point per 5 to 10 pages in the thread. A page represents any number of posts, depending upon their length. Thus it does not reward frequent small posts over slower large posts. Theoretically, larger posts are better, in that they reflect greater detail given by the DM, and better RP by the PCs. By counting pages, we neutralize any incentive to move slowly, and reward speed and posting depth. Breakout threads would be aggregated by the judge to determine total pages used in the adventure. Personally, I'm going to try to use fewer breakout threads in the future. While splitting a party in PbP is certainly more practical than in tabletop, it still leads to problems. Currently M3 is split into three parties, only one of whom can be active, b/c the other two are waiting to see how their actions turn out before being able to proceed.
Doghead(?) had a good point when he stated that it could take a long time to find a point when both your PC and your DMing has produced an opportunity to use your DM points. I think we should allow DM points to be used during an adventure, at the option of that adventure's DM. The player could make aa OOC post saying "I have 5 DM points I'd like to use next time you allocate XPs. Would that be OK?"
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:16 PM
Wow. Quite a thread you've started rln.
Another way we might determine DM points would be by page. Say 1 DM point per 5 to 10 pages in the thread. A page represents any number of posts, depending upon their length. Thus it does not reward frequent small posts over slower large posts. Theoretically, larger posts are better, in that they reflect greater detail given by the DM, and better RP by the PCs. By counting pages, we neutralize any incentive to move slowly, and reward speed and posting depth. Breakout threads would be aggregated by the judge to determine total pages used in the adventure. Personally, I'm going to try to use fewer breakout threads in the future. While splitting a party in PbP is certainly more practical than in tabletop, it still leads to problems. Currently M3 is split into three parties, only one of whom can be active, b/c the other two are waiting to see how their actions turn out before being able to proceed.
Doghead(?) had a good point when he stated that it could take a long time to find a point when both your PC and your DMing has produced an opportunity to use your DM points. I think we should allow DM points to be used during an adventure, at the option of that adventure's DM. The player could make aa OOC post saying "I have 5 DM points I'd like to use next time you allocate XPs. Would that be OK?"
Unfortunately, you are wrong about page size--it is split every 40 posts, regardless of length.
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Velmont02-17-06, 05:22 PM
Unfortunately, you are wrong about page size--it is split every 40 posts, regardless of length.
It split every 20, 30 or 40. It is in your user setting you determine that. I've been playing with it since I'm on ENWorld. While in Africa, with low d/l rate, I was favoring 20 (the smallest) as it takes less time to d/l. Now, I favor 40 as it allow me to see better the story of teh game I play and less earching for the post I want to remember.
Anyway, all that to tell that you can set the number of post per page.
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 05:24 PM
It split every 20, 30 or 40. It is in your user setting you determine that. I've been playing with it since I'm on ENWorld. While in Africa, with low d/l rate, I was favoring 20 (the smallest) as it takes less time to d/l. Now, I favor 40 as it allow me to see better the story of teh game I play and less earching for the post I want to remember.
Anyway, all that to tell that you can set the number of post per page.
Oh, I know that you can change the default. I'm just saying that it isn't based on post length.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 05:28 PM
OK then. Never mind. bad idea to use # of pages.
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Knight Otu02-17-06, 06:52 PM
Experience points - the PC gains XP as if he had been a month on an adventure. If applied to a new character and it would bring the character up a level, that character can start at the higher level (or with a Level Adjusted race or template) with all benefits.
Meaning it would take 20 DM credits to create, say, a level 1 aasimar or tiefling or other ECL 2 character (2 levels, 1 level +1LA), 40 for an ECL 3 character, 60 for an ECL 4 character, 80 for ECL 5, 100 for ECL 6, 120 for ECL7, and 140 for ECL 8. I think it would still be 160 for ECL 9, but afterwards, they would definitely be more costly.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.
That would definitely apply to my adventures.
This proposal would not give me an incentive to run more adventures (apart from the fact that my players would murder me if I started a third adventure, I have found that two adventures at one time is currently too much for me). However, it might encourage me to start a new adventure after concluding my current two adventures, and keep starting adventures after the conclusion of the previous adventure. Of course, I do have other adventures in the back of my head I'd like to run, and propably would do so even without the incentive.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 06:57 PM
I think this might encourage me to continue running adventures here down the line as well. It certainly wouldn't discourage me. I think we should get some form of this passed.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:02 PM
why not?As I said earlier, the reasoning behind the PC xp/month idea was because it takes forever to level a character and it sucks to have to wait a year (or more) to gain a level. With the PC xp/month rule, this issue has been supposedly resolved.
If you don't think the issue has been resolved (thus rendering the argument still valid), then it still makes no difference to this discussion because since it still takes too long to level, the xp/month should be raised for all PCs.
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Manzanita02-17-06, 07:09 PM
If we did assign points monthly, it would take 20 months of DMing to raise your PC a level. Considering I think a good leveling rate is one for 6 months of active play, that's 3 levels in 18 months. Most PCs don't go this fast, many don't even come close. A DM's primary PC would thus level 33% or more faster than comparable PCs. Potentially even faster than this if the DM ran multiple adventures simutaneously.
I think this is too much.
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:17 PM
(At least noone thought it completely sucked the warts of a cane toads back yet)I'm not a huge fan of the proposal, simply because I don't think LEW needs it, but I'm not totally against it either, because I don't think it harms LEW.
The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc). It is up to the player to find a reasonable explanation for this "windfall".I'm also for gaining a reward while mid-adventure, with the approval of the game's DM.
Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.These options are making less of a stir, and I like them better.
While the allocation of DM credits should follow the above guideline, the judge for the adventure has the option to deduct points when things are moving extremely slow or when there are large amounts of idle time in an adventure.... While good intentioned, I don't see it occuring a lot in practice, except by judge vote. It seems very, very subjective.
Running several concurrent adventures will give more DM credits.I wonder if we need this line. I'd rather a bunch of DMs run one adventure than fewer DMs run a number of adventures. Since it seems like there may be more DMs, an issue might be that DMs won't be able to find players for their games.
In the beginning of 2007, the system will be evaluated and voted upon, to see if it should be made permanent or removed.A good idea--a trial period. Would the DM Points accrued in this time be kept seperate, to facilitate easier subtraction should the system be removed? Or would the system just drop?
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Jdvn102-17-06, 07:20 PM
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.I don't think point/post is a good idea. If we're going to use the point/month, we could adjust the value of a point. 2 points = 1 PC month of xp. Or a flat number of points per level.
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Knight Otu02-17-06, 07:27 PM
I think we can fine-tune the amount of XP gained from DM credits if we choose to use the system. We could go for 25 XP/level/credit, to a maximum of 200 XP/credit for characters of level 8+, keeping the gold and craft points at 50/level/credit, to a maximum of 400/credit for level 8+.
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orsal02-17-06, 07:44 PM
* Money - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of gold instead of XP.
* Craft points - as above, but the PC gains the same amount of craft points instead of XP.These options are making less of a stir, and I like them better.
Although, in my case, as I'm currently leaning, the money option would be what tips me to vote against this proposal. I'm not abolutely sure I'd vote for it otherwise, or against it if money is an optin -- in both cases, I'm listening to further persuasion -- but if I had to vote right now, that's how I'd call it.
Anybody want to make the case, since this point hasn't made the stir it should, that PCs should be eligible for tangible benefits not derived from their own storyline?
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SlagMortar02-17-06, 07:47 PM
A sudden windfall of money could be explained in lots of ways. The easiest would be a guy shows up with a bag of money and says, "You were terribly difficult to track down. I'm sorry to report that your wealthy third cousin on your mother's side has passed away. She left you this. Bye."
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Rystil Arden02-17-06, 08:33 PM
If we did assign points monthly, it would take 20 months of DMing to raise your PC a level. Considering I think a good leveling rate is one for 6 months of active play, that's 3 levels in 18 months. Most PCs don't go this fast, many don't even come close. A DM's primary PC would thus level 33% or more faster than comparable PCs. Potentially even faster than this if the DM ran multiple adventures simutaneously.
I think this is too much.
Perhaps it would be better to give a DM point every 200 posts. Thus only the very fastest games would generate 1 DM point/month. Some would come in as low as 1 DM point/5 months. Most would come in between somewhere.
Ultimately, though I did chime in to help find exploits, I support the system. It can't possibly have a deterring effect on GMs, and even if the attracting effect is low, if it exists at all, that is a good thing.
As far as 'too much XP', sometimes XP goes much faster than a level per six months. To give a good example, take Krug the dwarf. He stumbled into the inn directly from creation right when Thurgan was looking to leave to join Immortality Awakens, joining immediately, then he rode along on the coattails of Thurgan (who was already level 3 at the time) into a bevy of orcs. By the time the smoke cleared, he was level 2 (technically he got 900 XP in 15 days, and the rest followed quickly). Compared to that, the GM XP can't possibly be problematic.
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Erekose1302-17-06, 10:11 PM
While I am not set on the gp rewards the amounts suggested are pretty miniscule, but say with ao'Thuir where I was 75gp short of a masterwork weapon at 3rd level, I might have been inclined to throw him some money with DM credits. Where as, while Tenebrynn could use some cash, he is above the curve on weath by level ratio so I wouldn't bother with money and send some XP love his way. At a cap of 400gp for a month's work I don't think that you will greatly affect the wealth of an 8th level character at all.
Also just wanted to quickly chime in on why the points for XP would be a bad way to go. My first adventure that I am running is for 6 characters average 4th level. By the end I expect they'll all have enough to get up a level and most of the way through the next. Thats 6*9000=54000xp in say a total of 6-8 months real time of adventuring. I think thats a heck of a lot more than the average 1st level adventure for 4 will churn out.
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Pbartender02-17-06, 10:25 PM
Allow me to be an example of a player who's had relatively bad luck gaining experience, and whose character would tangibly benefit from this proposal...
My sole character (Jack Haggerty) has earned a total of 3,554 XP since his creation nearly 30 months ago on 9/7/03. I have absolutely no interest in playing more than one character at a time in LEW.
He was created at roughly the same as characters such as Velmont's Rinaldo (12,775 XP), GnomeWork's Troi (9,248 XP), Keia's Thurgan (9,015 XP) and Manzanita's Ignatious (8,228 XP).
He has participated in three adventures during that time...
Slaying the Dreamer was abandoned by its DM, and ran from 9/19/03 until 5/21/04, when I had to take it upon myself as a Judge to end the adventure. ~ 8 months.
Pest Removal of Unusual Height and Depth was abandoned by its DM, but finished by an intervening Judge. It ran from 6/2/04 until 1/28/05. ~ 8 months.
Slaves of the Dragon is ongoing with occasional lulls. It has been running since 3/14/05. ~ 11 months and counting.
I've run two adventures as a DM...
A Tidy Profit was abandoned by the players. It ran from 12/19/03 until 6/22/04, when I ended the adventure without resolution. ~ 6 months.
Treasure of the Sierra Padre was abandoned by half the players, but continued with reinforcements from the Red Dragon Inn, who helped complete the adventure. It ran from 6/15/04 until 6/9/05. ~ 12 months.
As things are going now, it'll take years before Jack has enough XP to even think about taking levels in the Little Sneak Prestige Class that was designed with him in mind. The very thought of that has me considering retiring him and quitting LEW at the end of his current adventure.
Assuming the proposed rule had been in place from the beginning, my character would have an extra 1,800 XP (or gold), using the old XP per month rules, or an extra 2,700 XP (or gold), using the new XP per month rules... While it wouldn't be nearly enough to get him up to the Xp levels of some of his contemporaries, it could be enough to bump Jack up to 4th level, or at least put him within spitting distance of it... Or give him one useful minor magic item.
Currently, I'd stopped DMing adventures due to years of frustration (both in and outside of LEW) of PbP players going AWOL in the middle of an adventure. An incentive of this sort would at least get me thinking about running a couple of (very) short adventures (vignettes) again.
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Salix02-17-06, 11:42 PM
I think we just heard from Pbartender what this proposal really stands to do: retain DMs and prevent DM burnout. When I look at the names of who started adventure threads it is pretty much a small amount of people with multiple games. Maybe this would recruit one or two DMs, that would be great. But if it keeps the ones we have DMing that would be even better.
On the other hand, for the small time -first time DM this proposal doesn't offer a lot, maybe your character starts off with a little nicer equipment. But then again if it gets one person to try DMing when they really never thought to try it before, and they turn into a repeat DM, then I think it's served its purpose.
It would be great if the judges and those who know the ins and outs of PbP could figure out an appropriate reward system, and we could test run this for awhile.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:03 AM
Also just wanted to quickly chime in on why the points for XP would be a bad way to go. My first adventure that I am running is for 6 characters average 4th level. By the end I expect they'll all have enough to get up a level and most of the way through the next. Thats 6*9000=54000xp in say a total of 6-8 months real time of adventuring. I think thats a heck of a lot more than the average 1st level adventure for 4 will churn out.It was meant to be the xp for a single character. So don't multiply by 6. Basically, it'd be a tenth of the xp that one would have gotten having actually spent the time adventuring.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 07:09 AM
It was meant to be the xp for a single character. So don't multiply by 6. Basically, it'd be a tenth of the xp that one would have gotten having actually spent the time adventuring.
Why would it be the XP for a single character? That actually significantly penalises GMs that have multiple characters. Say a Dragon is worth 5,000 XP. The GM who lets two newbies tag along with the two regulars who do the brunt of the work will get half as much DM XP for the same fight as one who only has the two high-level characters.
I really don't like the XP-based system for this, and I would actually prefer either time or posts to that.
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Erekose1302-18-06, 07:24 AM
In any case, I agree with the general sentiment, that rewarding by xp is not the way to go. Time seems a good constant and I think the numbers that KO suggested are fine.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:57 AM
Why would it be the XP for a single character? That actually significantly penalises GMs that have multiple characters. Say a Dragon is worth 5,000 XP. The GM who lets two newbies tag along with the two regulars who do the brunt of the work will get half as much DM XP for the same fight as one who only has the two high-level characters.The previous example had six same-levelled characters. I used the phrase "max xp" earlier to refer to the xp of the character receiving the most experience points. I don't think it was understood, though. Possibly, an average-level xp or some other system might be used, but it seems like there's a way to exploit any system.
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Jdvn102-18-06, 07:58 AM
I think the numbers that KO suggested are fine.I also prefer the numbers KO suggests.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:03 AM
The previous example had six same-levelled characters. I used the phrase "max xp" earlier to refer to the xp of the character receiving the most experience points. I don't think it was understood, though. Possibly, an average-level xp or some other system might be used, but it seems like there's a way to exploit any system.
I would rather have a system that was exploitable than one that screws over GMs that take extra players, though.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:05 AM
I also prefer the numbers KO suggests.
For what it's worth, I prefer the system that goes up to 50 / level maximum based on activity. Frankly, the GP is insignificant and the CP is only useful to a few character types, so the XP is going to be the main thing chosen. With that in mind, I see no reason why the higher number is not fine for an active, motivated GM.
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rln02-18-06, 09:09 AM
* 50XP/level per credit gives the same reward as a player gets for time spent. I thought it was reasonable to use the same value.
* GP = XP is a wee bit (100gp) over the recommended value for level 1, on par for level 2-5, with a downgoing curve goes down after that (compared to the treasure table in the DMG). I think it's quite reasonable as well. When starting a new character, you will rather spend it on XP, start at a higher level and gain the starting equipment for that level, so this is mostly for PCs already in the game.
* Craft points - I really do not know a good amount, so I'm still asking for a decent value there, preferrably from someone that has actually used it
What's the amount gained per level today? I'd expect that 20 credits (the same amount needed to go up a level if it was spent on XP) should give about twice that - otherwise the player would rather spend it on XP, go up a level, and still get the same amount of craft points.Limiting spending DM points on character levels below 9 could be a good idea, at least for now, since there are few (no) high-level characters in the game.
Few systems are bug-free from the start, but I think social protocols will prevent most abuse. No need to think of _everything_ from the start.
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Manzanita02-18-06, 04:14 PM
I like the proposal, but I'm not satisfied with the details.
For DM/players running 1 adventure, and using their DM credits to gain XPs for their favorite PC, time spent awards alone would advance that PC 1 level in 10 months. Add XPs for adventuring and it's not unreasonable.
For DMs running 2 adventures (there's at least 3 of them, and God bless them!), if they focused their DM credits on XPs for one PC, time spent awards would level up that PC in 6 2/3 months. Add XPs for adventuring & that could be pretty steep. For DMs running 3 adventures (which has happened), they'd accrue a level up every 5 months, not including activity in their adventure.
Considering many adventures last a whole year, spending the DM credits at the conclusion of an adventure could easily mean 'skipping' a level.
I wonder if we should restrict this in some way. Perhaps reducing the credit to 25XP/level per credit, or requiring that DM credits accrued in concurant adventures to be applied either to different PCs or to different rewards (GPs vs. XPs)
Also,
A DM which abandons an adventure gets no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure
I think this may be excessive. If you look at Creamsteak's Heros of Vesper Peaks, which dragged on for over 12 months, any DM picking that one up to conclude would get quite a pack of DM credits. I think merely giving credit for the time spent after taking it over would be sufficient.
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Knight Otu02-18-06, 05:36 PM
For DM/players running 1 adventure, and using their DM credits to gain XPs for their favorite PC, time spent awards alone would advance that PC 1 level in 10 months. Add XPs for adventuring and it's not unreasonable.
For DMs running 2 adventures (there's at least 3 of them, and God bless them!), if they focused their DM credits on XPs for one PC, time spent awards would level up that PC in 6 2/3 months. Add XPs for adventuring & that could be pretty steep. For DMs running 3 adventures (which has happened), they'd accrue a level up every 5 months, not including activity in their adventure.
Are you using the new 50XP/level/month system, or the old 100XP/month? It seems you are using the latter?
As for idle time, how about the following: every ten days of idle time reduce the DM credits for that adventure by 1. Days where the DM waited on the players either don't count, or only count for half.
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Manzanita02-18-06, 05:58 PM
Knight Otu said:Are you using the new 50XP/level/month system, or the old 100XP/month? It seems you are using the latter?
QUOTE]
I'm using the 50/month, but I'm including 50/month of time spent adventuring. This assumes the PC in question is on an adventure. It would be less if he/she were in the RDI.
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Knight Otu02-18-06, 06:03 PM
Ah, ok. The bits about "adding in adventure XP" threw me off.
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Knight Otu02-18-06, 06:43 PM
* Craft points - I really do not know a good amount, so I'm still asking for a decent value there, preferrably from someone that has actually used it
When a character levels, he gains 100 craft points times his level. More if taking an Item Creation feat (500 * required level). I'd say it's good at the current pace.
Limiting spending DM points on character levels below 9 could be a good idea, at least for now, since there are few (no) high-level characters in the game.
Well, I've only noted the normal cap at which the XP/month doesn't increase anymore. Not sure if actually limiting to lower-level characters is a good idea.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 07:58 PM
For DMs running 2 adventures (there's at least 3 of them, and God bless them!), if they focused their DM credits on XPs for one PC, time spent awards would level up that PC in 6 2/3 months. Add XPs for adventuring & that could be pretty steep. For DMs running 3 adventures (which has happened), they'd accrue a level up every 5 months, not including activity in their adventure.
Considering many adventures last a whole year, spending the DM credits at the conclusion of an adventure could easily mean 'skipping' a level.
I wonder if we should restrict this in some way. Perhaps reducing the credit to 25XP/level per credit, or requiring that DM credits accrued in concurant adventures to be applied either to different PCs or to different rewards (GPs vs. XPs)
The problem with that is that most GMs only do run 1 adventure, or 2 at most. Reducing the award because some rare person might run 3 will make the amount very small for the majority, who run only 1 (if we take a look at some people here, who have only 1 PC and say that if they GMed, they wouldn't be able to also run their PC, they would be taking tiny, tiny steps).
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SlagMortar02-18-06, 08:10 PM
If someone wants to run several simultaneous adventures and can do a good job with them all and not get burned out, I think it's fine to have that DM's PC level more quickly. Honestly, I think one of the worst things that could happen to a PC is to be 2 or 3 levels higher than anyone else. Who would you adventure with? If someone had a level 9 PC right now, I don't think most DMs would pick them up for a current adventure.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:18 PM
If someone wants to run several simultaneous adventures and can do a good job with them all and not get burned out, I think it's fine to have that DM's PC level more quickly. Honestly, I think one of the worst things that could happen to a PC is to be 2 or 3 levels higher than anyone else. Who would you adventure with? If someone had a level 9 PC right now, I don't think most DMs would pick them up for a current adventure.
On the other hand, a level 9 Wizard with a steady XP income from GM points could make a killing on the Wondrous Item market
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orsal02-18-06, 08:40 PM
I wonder if we should restrict this in some way. Perhaps reducing the credit to 25XP/level per credit, or requiring that DM credits accrued in concurant adventures to be applied either to different PCs or to different rewards (GPs vs. XPs)
I think Manzanita's analysis is spot on. Another possible solution would be a flat 50 XP/month. That would be more valuable if applied to 1st level characters, but less at higher levels. One nice thing about that is that it makes it relatively cheap to use to create LA characters, and I'd rather see those than conventional characters raced through level advancement.
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orsal02-18-06, 08:44 PM
If someone wants to run several simultaneous adventures and can do a good job with them all and not get burned out, I think it's fine to have that DM's PC level more quickly.
The question is, *how much* more quickly? If it gets to the point that accumulated (PC and DM) time spent XP is driving level advancement, instead of just being the extra reward (or consolation prize in the case of adventures that died out), then I'm against it. We set the XP rate for PCs with that in mind; let's not break the system by letting a player get 3-4 times as much.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 08:48 PM
The question is, *how much* more quickly? If it gets to the point that accumulated (PC and DM) time spent XP is driving level advancement, instead of just being the extra reward (or consolation prize in the case of adventures that died out), then I'm against it. We set the XP rate for PCs with that in mind; let's not break the system by letting a player get 3-4 times as much.
Well, I think that the relative amount gained from these are based on their adventures. If they get stuck in a dead adventure, then yeah, they'll be getting all the XP from time. An active adventure can give much more. Imagine that Thurgan and Krug had continued to kill first-level orcs together randomly without an adventure at the same rate as they did in the first month. They'd be getting 1800 XP per month (for Krug) and 1600 XP per month (for Thurgan), and the time XP would be piddling. Now, if the GM or players just stall and give no XP, then yes, 200 XP per month for level 2 Krug if he was also GMing would be a lot compared to 0, but it is still only 10% of what he could be getting if he was killing weenies.
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SlagMortar02-18-06, 10:18 PM
On the other hand, a level 9 Wizard with a steady XP income from GM points could make a killing on the Wondrous Item market Particularly if the Job System passes.
Is that a problem? Someone who has DMed several excellent adventures has major stake in LEW being fun and enjoyable for everyone. If there was a level 15 mystic theurge PC in Orussus right now with a steady stream of XP and craft points from DM experience then he could make a killing selling items. I just don't see that being abused by someone who has DMed several great adventures. He won't be going on many adventures.
For example, in The Faerie Woods, Gorefoot died and so Patlin put in a scroll of reincarnate. Had there been a high level PC who could cast reincarnate or raise dead, our party could have petitioned that person instead to help us bring our friend back. The only reason there was not such a PC available is that LEW hasn't been around long enough. There probably would have been if the adventure had happened 5 years from now. Whether a person has played on LEW for 7 years, or DMed twenty adventures over the course of 3 years, I trust them to have a level 15 PC.
I do think there is a legitimete concern of LEW growing up too quickly, but the best person to trust with a high level PC is a person who has DMed several excellent adventures.
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Rystil Arden02-18-06, 10:21 PM
Is that a problem? Someone who has DMed several excellent adventures has major stake in LEW being fun and enjoyable for everyone. If there was a level 15 mystic theurge PC in Orussus right now with a steady stream of XP and craft points from DM experience then he could make a killing selling items. I just don't see that being abused by someone who has DMed several great adventures. He won't be going on many adventures.
For example, in The Faerie Woods, Gorefoot died and so Patlin put in a scroll of reincarnate. Had there been a high level PC who could cast reincarnate or raise dead, our party could have petitioned that person instead to help us bring our friend back. The only reason there was not such a PC available is that LEW hasn't been around long enough. There probably would have been if the adventure had happened 5 years from now. Whether a person has played on LEW for 7 years, or DMed twenty adventures over the course of 3 years, I trust them to have a level 15 PC.
I do think there is a legitimete concern of LEW growing up too quickly, but the best person to trust with a high level PC is a person who has DMed several excellent adventures.
I actually agree with you, but I would feel derelict in my duty to present all possibilities if I didn't point it out at all
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SlagMortar02-18-06, 10:31 PM
It is good to point it out. It needs discussed.
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Bront02-18-06, 11:22 PM
When a character levels, he gains 100 craft points times his level. More if taking an Item Creation feat (500 * required level). I'd say it's good at the current pace.I agree that's a good pace. It may not be used that often even at that, as gold or XP is generaly worth more, but giving too much makes the system meaningless.
I'm not worried about the "skipping" a level, simply because I don't see it as an issue. Keep in mind, unless you take money, your gear will stay the same, so you'll end up either an under-equiped high level character, or an over equiped low level character, unless you balance it.
Also, keep in mind that successfull adventures can yield much more XP anyway, so this is ultimately negligable additional XP.
I still think it needs to be limited to being applies outside of an adventure, but can be saved untill it's desired to be used. Jumping a level isn't disruptive out of an adventure, but could be in an adventure.
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Bront02-18-06, 11:36 PM
I do think there is a legitimete concern of LEW growing up too quickly, but the best person to trust with a high level PC is a person who has DMed several excellent adventures.
The other end of the problem is that some people could feel that game is growing too slowly. Remember, it's been around how many years and there are how many 5th or higher level characters?
We're talking about a player being able to not adventure and level up by running a game in 20 months (Or a year and 2/3rds if you prefer). Is that too fast? If he adventures, that's a level ever 10 months, plus XP earned from the game. Is that realy too fast for someone who's running/playing in 2 games? I've been in games that have moved faster in PbP, and slower in PbP.
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doghead02-19-06, 02:39 AM
After concluding an adventure, the DM gains 1 DM credit per real-time month spent on the adventure.
A DM credit can be used to add a benefit to one of the DM's own player characters. The player character can only gain this reward when he is in between adventures (ie, he's in the RDI, on a job etc).
I think DM's should be able to cash in cretits whenever they have a character in the RDI (not currently in an adventure) who they wish to spend credits on. A request is made to the judges along with a little descriptive passage explaining how, in game terms, the extra XP, GP or CP were earned.
For example, say Jaan returns from his current adventure at 2850 XP (currently 2450 after 2 years and 5 months). My current adventure has been running a couple of months so I have a couple of DM credits accrued. Enough to edge Jaan to third level. But my adventure is months and months away from finishing. So my options are sit Jaan in the RDI for months twiddling his thumbs until my adventure finishes, or get him into another adventure. Which in turn could last months. So it could be some time in 2007 before I could apply the credits.
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification or any attempt to wrap up or hand it over to a new DM should get no reward, while a DM that picks up the remains and finishes an abandoned adventure should get a full reward for that adventure.
Sometimes, RL gets in the way. I would hate to see someone who has put in months of work loose everything because they had a baby, moved house, lost a job, got promoted and handed a big project, fell sick etc. Seems a little harsh. Hence my little addition in red.
thotd
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Someone02-19-06, 08:47 AM
Personally, with a system like this, I could get compelled to DM another adventure. The DM does the most work and doesn4t get any reward; and a few more XPs won4t make any character so high level he doesn4t fit in LEW.
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Pbartender02-19-06, 01:13 PM
...let's not break the system by letting a player get 3-4 times as much.
Take another look at my example posted above, because that's already happening. The current experience totals for the earliest characters who are still active and were built at roughly the same time (within a months or so of each other), ranges from ~3,000 or 4,000 XP to ~9,000 or 12,000 XP... 3-4 times as much. And that variation doesn't have anything to do with the time-based monthly XP awards.
How will this proposal break a system that's apparently already broken?
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doghead02-19-06, 01:41 PM
The current experience totals for the earliest characters who are still active and were built at roughly the same time (within a months or so of each other), ranges from ~3,000 or 4,000 XP to ~9,000 or 12,000 XP... 3-4 times as much.
Pbartender's situation is not unique either. Jaan has earnt 2450 XP since 08-31-03, 09:18 AM. Admittedly I dropped out for a year 'cos I got a bit frustrated. I only came back because the new rules guaranteed that games would be finished and Jaan would get something even if the adventure he was in stalled.
thotd
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orsal02-20-06, 02:43 AM
Take another look at my example posted above, because that's already happening. The current experience totals for the earliest characters who are still active and were built at roughly the same time (within a months or so of each other), ranges from ~3,000 or 4,000 XP to ~9,000 or 12,000 XP... 3-4 times as much. And that variation doesn't have anything to do with the time-based monthly XP awards.
How will this proposal break a system that's apparently already broken?
Time-based XP aren't the difference there; conventional XP are.
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DerHauptman02-20-06, 03:08 AM
......Whether a person has played on LEW for 7 years, or DMed twenty adventures over the course of 3 years, I trust them to have a level 15 PC.
I do think there is a legitimete concern of LEW growing up too quickly, but the best person to trust with a high level PC is a person who has DMed several excellent adventures.
//signed//
Great point, those who are willing to give the time and effort to DM and stick with it deserve a booby here and there for sure. I dunno what the real track record is here in LEW casue I'm a pbp cherry, but in the last 3 adventeures in the regular "playing the game" forum I am in have have sort of fizzled to 2wice a week. One of them did in less than a weeks time - ugh
Orginally, all the Dm's were of the "Hey you gotta be able to post 1once a day at least maybe more would be better!" crowd.
Just as a note and cudos to the community here; I see the stick-to- it'iveness here is way beter just from the games I've been following - this is priceless for the community.
I think they deserve a reward. They should be able to cash it in at any time IMO. With the understood exeption of when in another's adventure casue this could blow the whole scaling of the other DM's plan. When at rest the points could be spent any time. It's flexability.
Having the higher level item creators is a great boon as well. Heck it might be worth it for the community to just give all the trusted and tried DM's some higher level crafter type NPC's to control in the city to make for more RP opprotunities. Sorta like the RDI, each one has a store or shop to run with stuff in it for the PC's to buy. Have a thread for each store, shop, tower or business. They would be natural patrons as well a way to get adventures started and such in addition to the RDI, Make them NPC's so that people could interact with other NPC's in town outside their adventures. Sorry, totally a tangent there its a proposal in itself and we got plenty going right now.
Take care all,
DerHauptman - Out!
P.S. I am having a blast playing here so thanks to everyone DM's, Judges, and players alike.
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GnomeWorks02-20-06, 10:18 AM
Pbartender's situation is not unique either. Jaan has earnt 2450 XP since 08-31-03, 09:18 AM. Admittedly I dropped out for a year 'cos I got a bit frustrated. I only came back because the new rules guaranteed that games would be finished and Jaan would get something even if the adventure he was in stalled.
I'm guessing that would have been around the time of Rivenblight's Castaway?
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doghead02-20-06, 11:56 AM
I'm guessing that would have been around the time of Rivenblight's Castaway?
Yeah. Good guess. I was going to have Jaan leave a message with Joe for Troi last time Jaan was in the RDI. But an adventure came up and I forgot. It would be cool if those two could catch up some time. I actually had Jaan travel the Rivenblight road looking for Troi. It seemed like a good way to explain his absence from adventuring. And it seemed to me that a paladin wouldn't just walk away from a lost companion.
thotd
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Pbartender02-20-06, 05:05 PM
Time-based XP aren't the difference there; conventional XP are.
That's my point exactly...
Worrying about this proprosal causing a major discrepancy in XP levels is just silly. The discrepancy is already there, it isn't caused by the small amounts of time-based XP that have already been given, and the bit of extra time-based XP granted to DMs by this proposal won't make it any worse.
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Manzanita02-20-06, 05:14 PM
I'd vote for this proposal as it stands, despite my reservations, given that it will be up for review in a year. We can review it again after that, too, of course, since a year might not be long enough for it to be evaluated properly.
No one else commented on my suggestion that DMs who take over an adventure only get credit for the time period in which they are in charge, and not the time the original DM was in charge. I would like to see this made clear in the proposal.
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orsal02-20-06, 06:02 PM
That's my point exactly...
Worrying about this proprosal causing a major discrepancy in XP levels is just silly.
You completely misunderstand my objection then. I wasn't worrying about inequality in XP levels between characters at all. I was worrying about the possibility that characters might end up having their advancement driven by time-based XP bonuses. I have previously advocated, and still do advocate, that any non-story-based XP awards be kept at a level sufficiently low that that not happen.
No one else commented on my suggestion that DMs who take over an adventure only get credit for the time period in which they are in charge, and not the time the original DM was in charge. I would like to see this made clear in the proposal.
I agree with that. The DM who takes over an adventure that has dragged on for 8-10 months because of an inactive DM and then wraps it up shouldn't get any credit for what happened before he took control.
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Pbartender02-21-06, 02:17 PM
You completely misunderstand my objection then. I wasn't worrying about inequality in XP levels between characters at all. I was worrying about the possibility that characters might end up having their advancement driven by time-based XP bonuses. I have previously advocated, and still do advocate, that any non-story-based XP awards be kept at a level sufficiently low that that not happen.
That's fine... It applies there, too. Unless someone is very purposefully lazing about for XP, the story-based XP will far outweigh the time-based XP. And even then, they'll end up very far behind the people who actually do something.
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Velmont02-21-06, 02:20 PM
Just wondering about one thing:
A DM recieve his reward at the end of the adventure?
The reward can only be use between adventures when applied on an active character?
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Knight Otu02-21-06, 03:21 PM
Just wondering about one thing:
A DM recieve his reward at the end of the adventure?
The reward can only be use between adventures when applied on an active character?
As I understand it, yes, the DM gets the credits at the end of his adventure, and can apply them at any time to a character not on an adventure.
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SlagMortar02-21-06, 05:25 PM
and can apply them at any time to a character not on an adventure.
I think there should be a caveat that it can be added during an adventure with the approval of the DM and judge for that adventure. However, I don't think that needs to be added to the rule. It can be handled on the fly.
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Knight Otu02-21-06, 09:36 PM
I'll wait for rln's comments to cast my vote, but it's likely to be Yes for the test drive.
While it won't affect my vote, I do want to hear if, should we decide against this system after the test drive, the DMs should keep the earned points or not.
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Rystil Arden02-21-06, 09:38 PM
I'll wait for rln's comments to cast my vote, but it's likely to be Yes for the test drive.
While it won't affect my vote, I do want to hear if, should we decide against this system after the test drive, the DMs should keep the earned points or not.
That would not be fun if they didn't "Oh sorry--didn't spend your twenty-four points fast enough. They're gone now"
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Knight Otu02-21-06, 09:41 PM
As JdvnX pointed out, it might affect DMs who spent them as well "What do you mean, my character drops a level?"
(I think it's obvious which I'd favor.
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Velmont02-21-06, 10:08 PM
As JdvnX pointed out, it might affect DMs who spent them as well "What do you mean, my character drops a level?"
(I think it's obvious which I'd favor.
You forgot:
"Ok, but that mean in that adventure, I would have won more XP as I would have entered with one less level. Hey DM! Can you recalculate the XP I should have earned?"
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doghead02-21-06, 11:55 PM
A DM recieve his reward at the end of the adventure?
Apparently this would be the case.
On the one hand, it would, I think tend to encourage DM's to keep the adventure moving towards its conclusion. It may also lead to shorter adventures. The former is a good thing, the latter may or may not be. Shorter adventures would mean a greater turn over in the RDI. As adventures tend to slow down, and often shed characters, with time, it may lead to a more pacy gaming. But shorter, of course, is not necessarily better.
On the other hand, characters don't have to complete an adventure before they recieve their time served XP. And given the pace of pbp gaming, a number of current adventures as well as most new adventures started this year will probably not finish within the one year window. So the opportunity to see the propoosal in action may be limited.
Initially I thought DMs should be able to cash in credits accrued at any time. Now I'm not so sure.
The reward can only be use between adventures when applied on an active character?
I know that reservations have been expressed about characters advancing more by credits than in game xp. But I don't really have a problem with this. If someone wants to run several adventures and allocate the xp to a character who sets up shop to craft items or cast spells or whatnot for other adventurers, it would only serve to make the world more 'alive'.
thotd
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Jdvn102-22-06, 12:03 AM
As I understand it, yes, the DM gets the credits at the end of his adventure, and can apply them at any time to a character not on an adventure.For DMs who run long adventures, this could be a problem. It runs into a similar problem as only allowing characters to level when not in an adventure. Why not giving the DM the credits when he gives his players the XP? That way, you do all the numerical housekeeping at roughly the same time.
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Manzanita02-22-06, 12:13 AM
I agree that DM credits should be available before the end of the adventure. Otherwise, it might take well over a year to be able to use them. The judge could assign DM credits whenever the DM assigns XPs.
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Erekose1302-22-06, 12:57 AM
I would think it would be alright as the DM in a seperate game to allow a PC played by another DM to gain his DM Credits/XP during the game as long as there was some say in when they could be alloted.
So for example in my current adventure the PCs are in the middle of a big battle. It would be rather strange for Manzanita's character, Percy to advance a level now. However, when the characters next (first?) rest I will be awarding XP gained so far and would not be adverse to him adding XP to Percy at that time.
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rln02-22-06, 06:37 AM
I'll wait for rln's comments to cast my vote, but it's likely to be Yes for the test drive.
I'm still here, listening to the discussion
I'll update the original post later today, after reading through the latest input.
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rln02-24-06, 09:07 AM
The first message in the thread has been updated with what I hope is the final proposal. The following were added:
Rewards changed to 25 XP/ECL, 50 GP/ECL or 5 CP/ECL (ie 40 points give a level OR twice the amount of gold or craft points he should've received normally by gaining a level). each 40 points also increase the level allowed to start a new character at.
Limited point rewards to ECL 8.
DM can allow spending DM credits for XP, gold and/or craft points within an adventure, at his discretion.
Clarified what happens if the system is removed.
I also added this one, which will keep adventuring experience the "driving" force for PC enhancement:
DM credits spent on XP or new characters can not be spent to "outrank" the currently highest PC.
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doghead02-24-06, 09:48 AM
Third & Current Proposal:
DM credits spent will net a PC:
Experience points - the PC gains 25 XP per ECL per DM credit spent.
Money - the PC gains 50 GP per ECL per DM credit
Craft points - the PC gains 5 CP per ECL per DM credit
Starting a new character - When starting a new character, each 40 DM credits means you can start at a higher ECL with all benefits.
40 Credits, thats only 3 years and 4 months of DM'ing, 1 year and 8 months if you run two games, 1 year and one month if you run 3 games, and 10 months if you run 4. Not sure we will see anyone getting a LA +1 character out of this.
Personally I think 25 XP is a little low. I understand the concerns about keeping in game interation the principle driving force behind advancement, but running a game for 6 characters is as much work as running 6 characters ni my experience.
A DM which abandons an adventure without notification gets no reward for that adventure. If a DM quits an adventure prematurely but gracefully (ie handing over material to another DM and helping her out with minor details) she receives full credit up until the point she quits, while the new DM receives credits from that point on in time. If an adventure ends due to player dropout, the DM gets full credit.
Wrapping up a game should also be an option, especially if no one is willing or able to take it over.
thotd
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orsal02-24-06, 04:40 PM
(ie 40 points give a level OR twice the amount of gold or craft points he should've received normally by gaining a level).
This is confused. You don't gain gold by gaining a level the way you do with craft points. Generally you gain your gold at the same time as gaining experience, but the experience itself doesn't bring gold.
With this in mind, do you still think that's the appropriate amount for pecuniary awards. (Of course, as I've already argued but convinced nobody, I think the appropriate amount is zero.)
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Knight Otu02-24-06, 05:46 PM
*Craft points - the PC gains 5 CP per ECL per DM credit
That is quite an extreme reduction, especially since it seem that the consensus was that the 50/credit pace was good. Also, I believe you said you wanted at least double the amount gained due to level advancement, not exactly as much.
*Starting a new character - When starting a new character, each 40 DM credits means you can start at a higher ECL with all benefits.
I'd rather see this folded into the XP option, since it is effectively the same.
Point rewards is limted to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 200XP, 400 GP or 400 CP by one DM credit. Also, when spending DM credits for XP or starting a new character, you can never exceed the experience of the highest PC in LEW.
That should be folded into the options (X per ECL per DM credit spent, to a maximum of Y at 8th level), as it can be easily misunderstood.
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Manzanita02-24-06, 06:05 PM
It seemed that most people were happier with the 50 XPs/lvl amount. My suggestion of lowering it only recieved one supporting post.
The bit about not surpassing current the highest level PC I think is unnecessary if we go with 25XPs/lvl, and awkward regardless. It would mean that the top few PCs, who are often quite close in XPs might not be eligible for this. If several of these were run by DMs, they might all end up clumping. If one of these were someone's only PC, then this would exclude XP credits altogether.
Another way of dealing with these issues would be to give a flat 100 XPs per DM credit. This would be more valuable for low-level PCs, allowing an ECL +1 PC to be introduced with just 10 DM credits, but making it less likely that these points would end up pushing the highest level PCs even higher.
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Jdvn102-24-06, 06:10 PM
I'd rather see this folded into the XP option, since it is effectively the same.I'd like the new-character-with-ECL option spelled out, because there are definitely going to be questions about it.
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Knight Otu02-24-06, 06:18 PM
I'd like the new-character-with-ECL option spelled out, because there are definitely going to be questions about it.
It can be spelled out while being folded into the XP option, though.
"This option can be used to create characters of an effective level higher that 1st, by being applied to a new character. For example, with 40 credits, you could create a 2nd level character, or a 1st level character with a LA of +1 and no racial Hit Dice."
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Rystil Arden02-24-06, 07:56 PM
It seemed that most people were happier with the 50 XPs/lvl amount. My suggestion of lowering it only recieved one supporting post.
The bit about not surpassing current the highest level PC I think is unnecessary if we go with 25XPs/lvl, and awkward regardless. It would mean that the top few PCs, who are often quite close in XPs might not be eligible for this. If several of these were run by DMs, they might all end up clumping. If one of these were someone's only PC, then this would exclude XP credits altogether.
Another way of dealing with these issues would be to give a flat 100 XPs per DM credit. This would be more valuable for low-level PCs, allowing an ECL +1 PC to be introduced with just 10 DM credits, but making it less likely that these points would end up pushing the highest level PCs even higher.
I agree--it really should be 50, I think.
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Velmont02-24-06, 07:58 PM
I agree too for the XP, 25 is not much. 50/lvl or 100 fix seems both correct with me. Which one, I think both have good and bad side.
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orsal02-24-06, 10:21 PM
I also added this one, which will keep adventuring experience the "driving" force for PC enhancement:
DM credits spent on XP or new characters can not be spent to "outrank" the currently highest PC.
I just realized the word "driving", which suggests to me that you did this in response to my concerns, since I had used that word in multiple posts earlier. Since this particular change does nothing to address my concern, I'm wondering if I was misunderstood.
To clarify: I don't see level advancement as a competitive race. When I talk about the pace of level advancement, I'm thinking of any character's own pace, not the pace of the highest level character in LEW. I want to ensure that, as each character advances, the bulk of his or her XP come the conventional way. I don't want a character to shoot up several levels without having enough in the LEW storyline to justify it.
This part of the proposal is irrelevant to my concern, because if there is a single seventh-level character in LEW (as there probably will be within a year or so) it does nothing to affect how quickly characters might advance from first to seventh level -- it only puts the brakes on before eighth level.
However, your slashing the XP award does address that very concern.
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orsal02-24-06, 10:24 PM
I'd like the new-character-with-ECL option spelled out, because there are definitely going to be questions about it.I'd rather see this folded into the XP option, since it is effectively the same.
Is it? How are a LA character's XP reckoned -- does a beginning character from an LA2 race start with 0 XP or 3000 XP? If 0, then no, it isn't effectively the same.
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Rystil Arden02-24-06, 10:38 PM
Is it? How are a LA character's XP reckoned -- does a beginning character from an LA2 race start with 0 XP or 3000 XP? If 0, then no, it isn't effectively the same.
The LA2 character starts with 3000 XP and takes 3000 more to get to level 2. This is the main reason why LA is incredibly crippling to characters--it never ceases to penalise you, even far after it has outlived all semblance of usefulness. Fortunately, since UA is now in the SRD, we can vote in the rules for buying off LA if we ever get an LA character.
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Knight Otu02-24-06, 10:43 PM
does a beginning character from an LA2 race start with 0 XP or 3000 XP?
Yes.
A character whose Effective Character Level is 3, whether a 3rd level human, a 2nd level aasimar, or a 0-level gnoll, starts with 3000 XP.
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SlagMortar02-24-06, 10:51 PM
it never ceases to penalise you, even far after it has outlived all semblance of usefulness
I've never played (or played with) a level adjusted character, but I always thought that the level adjustment penalized the character more early in the character development rather than later. Is that not true?
For example, I'm not sure of the level adjustment of a Half-Dragon, but I think it is +4. I would think the difference at ECL 5 between a level 1 Half-Dragon fighter and a level 5 human fighter is much greater than the difference at ECL 20 between a level 16 Half-Dragon fighter and a level 20 human fighter.
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Knight Otu02-24-06, 10:56 PM
In many cases, it will penalize you less as you advance in levels (spellcasters being the biggest point where the penalty doesn't get lower), but there will always be a penalty. You will always be behind in hit points and hit dice, Base Attack Bonus and Base Saves.
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Rystil Arden02-24-06, 10:56 PM
I've never played (or played with) a level adjusted character, but I always thought that the level adjustment penalized the character more early in the character development rather than later. Is that not true?
For example, I'm not sure of the level adjustment of a Half-Dragon, but I think it is +4. I would think the difference at ECL 5 between a level 1 Half-Dragon fighter and a level 5 human fighter is much greater than the difference at ECL 20 between a level 16 Half-Dragon fighter and a level 20 human fighter.
It is a mixed blessing and a curse. The ECL 5 Half-Dragon is unplayably bad at some things (hit points especially!) but has enormous advantages in others (damage!). Imagine you attached a Half-Dragon Orc Barbarian 1 (ECL 5) with some sort of spell that let another party member take the damage for her. She would be unstoppable (If she pays 10 points for a 16 in Strength, she gets 32 Strength in Rage).
At level 20, the hit point difference is not enough to matter too much, but the advantages for most LA races die off more quickly. A drow with 18 levels in any class is unequivocally worse than a non-drow with 20.
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SlagMortar02-24-06, 11:02 PM
Ah, so it mostly depends on the class and the race/template, and can leave you lopsided. Just like everything else. Thanks!
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Rystil Arden02-24-06, 11:07 PM
Ah, so it mostly depends on the class and the race/template, and can leave you lopsided. Just like everything else. Thanks!
It will start you lopsided, and eventually, you recover from the lopsidedness to the point where you are just worse than the non-LA character in everything.
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Erekose1302-25-06, 01:44 AM
I am starting to get confused by this discussion and the one in the General Discussion thread. Though I do agree with RA that even a +1LA race is really hard to justify when compared with normal races. I don't know if buying down LA will fly with the general audience though as it wasnt the easiest concept to get over when I first started using it in one game I played in.
Regarding the discussion of the worth of DM credits, I'd go for something like:
50xp/lvl/credit
50gp/lvl/credit
50Craft Points/lvl/credit
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Rystil Arden02-25-06, 01:53 AM
I am starting to get confused by this discussion and the one in the General Discussion thread. Though I do agree with RA that even a +1LA race is really hard to justify when compared with normal races. I don't know if buying down LA will fly with the general audience though as it wasnt the easiest concept to get over when I first started using it in one game I played in.
Regarding the discussion of the worth of DM credits, I'd go for something like:
50xp/lvl/credit
50gp/lvl/credit
50Craft Points/lvl/credit
The great thing about the Judge system, just like any representative system, is that we don't have to convinced the random masses--just the Judges. This is a good thing because much like the Warlock and the Mystic Theurge, LA buyoff as per UA is a good and balanced thing that many find troublesome at first.
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Erekose1302-25-06, 01:59 AM
Oh I agree that I like the buyoff system perhaps one of us should propose it too?
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Rystil Arden02-25-06, 02:00 AM
Oh I agree that I like the buyoff system perhaps one of us should propose it too?
I have a strict record of not proposing anything, and anyways, no need to propose this until we actually have an LA character, I'd say. It will be years until the LA character hits level 3
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rln02-28-06, 07:42 AM
Regarding the discussion of the worth of DM credits, I'd go for something like:
50xp/lvl/credit
50gp/lvl/credit
50Craft Points/lvl/credit
I thought I saw more support for lowering to 25 XP per credit and level. I'll change it back.
I know that gold isn't earned "automatically". I just used that as a base for my calculations.
50 craft points per level per DM credit?? That's 1000 craft points for the same amount of DM credits as going up from level 1 to level 2, which would yield 200 craft points normally. On level 7 to 8, it'd be 7000 craft points, compared to 800. Sounds a little excessive to me.
As for "driving" the experience, I put that in there to adress the worry that DM credits would let some PCs make LEW grow to higher levels too quickly. The ECL 8 limit also adresses this, in that the rewards will not be linear with the ECL after ECL 8. Perhaps that is enough?
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rln02-28-06, 07:47 AM
I don't see level advancement as a competitive race. When I talk about the pace of level advancement, I'm thinking of any character's own pace, not the pace of the highest level character in LEW. I want to ensure that, as each character advances, the bulk of his or her XP come the conventional way. I don't want a character to shoot up several levels without having enough in the LEW storyline to justify it.And I'm of a differing opinion. Things can happen 'behind the scenes'. Not everything needs to happen while adventuring.
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rln02-28-06, 08:05 AM
For DMs who run long adventures, this could be a problem. It runs into a similar problem as only allowing characters to level when not in an adventure. Why not giving the DM the credits when he gives his players the XP? That way, you do all the numerical housekeeping at roughly the same time.I originally added the bit about assigning credits when wrapping up the game to encourage a DM to not just drop out of DMing in the middle if the adventure.
Since I suspect most DMs that abandon their adventures also quit LEW altogether, it probably doesn't help all that much anyway.
The numerical housekeeping of this should be pretty low in any case - check the first post, check the last post, count the number of months in between and there you have it
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Erekose1302-28-06, 05:25 PM
hmm that is too many craft points, okay dial that one back a lot.
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Rystil Arden02-28-06, 05:34 PM
I'd say don't scale back the craft points much, if at all--let's face it guys, do we really think that 5x the normal craft points for the level is worth as much as actually getting the level? If you spend on XP, you get 200 craft points as well as all the usual perks of gaining a level. If we cut back the craft point reward to the point where you get a similar amount for spending on craft points, then what is the point?
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Knight Otu02-28-06, 05:35 PM
50 craft points per level per DM credit?? That's 1000 craft points for the same amount of DM credits as going up from level 1 to level 2, which would yield 200 craft points normally. On level 7 to 8, it'd be 7000 craft points, compared to 800. Sounds a little excessive to me.
It also depends on what feats the character might take. Most craft feats give a lot of Craft points. But 50 may be too much after all. Maybe 25 is better.
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orsal02-28-06, 05:51 PM
I'd say don't scale back the craft points much, if at all--let's face it guys, do we really think that 5x the normal craft points for the level is worth as much as actually getting the level? If you spend on XP, you get 200 craft points as well as all the usual perks of gaining a level. If we cut back the craft point reward to the point where you get a similar amount for spending on craft points, then what is the point?
As far as weighing perks -- you're right, craft points aren't anywhere near the value of XP. But look at it another way: if too many craft points are available to characters whose players DM, that means that anyone who wants to play a crafter supplementing his adventuring income by selling his products at the inn, but who doesn't have the real-life time or the experience to DM much, can feel his character's work is marginal compared to what some of the other PCs are doing.
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Erekose1303-03-06, 12:50 AM
Are there any outstanding issues that we need to cover? Otherwise I think it might be ready for a trail run as the two judges who have given tentative yes votes to seem willing to accept. Any other judge ready to let it get into that phase. I think the first adventure (at least that I'm in) might be ready to hand out those DM credits (to Manzanita for M3) soon.
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Manzanita03-03-06, 05:23 AM
rln has not modified the proposal yet for the most recent suggestions. He's waiting for the craft points issue, perhaps. I'm not really up on that & have no further comment on it. I believe I'd vote yes for this proposal as it stands, but will wait for the latest update.
As for M3, that might have a ways to go still. It all depends on what you guys do.
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rln03-03-06, 04:33 PM
OK, updated the original post:
* Back to 50 XP / ECL / credit
* Craft points are at 25 CP / ECL / credit
* Moved some text blocks (restrictions are now summed up at the end)
* Removed the text about not exceeding the highest player
* Wrote the "new character" back into the XP section.
Ready for votes, I think?
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Manzanita03-03-06, 08:19 PM
Looks good. I'll give it the thumbs up! Thanks rln.
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Knight Otu03-03-06, 08:28 PM
Rewards are limited to ECL 8, meaning that you can never gain more than 400XP, 400 GP or 200 CP by one DM credit.
Hey! I told you to get rid of that sentence!
I approve.
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Erekose1303-04-06, 01:35 AM
Excellent.
Re: M3, I can see where our plans may dictate a much longer adventure
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nimisgod03-04-06, 02:46 AM
I approve.
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