DM depressed about Shapechange

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Hi FrankinLondon,

Thanks very much for taking the time to post …<SNIP>…BTW, the module is Bastion of Broken Souls.

No problem Frank. Us DMs need to take care of each other, after all.

What’s more, as fate would have it I just finished running my players through Bastion of Broken Souls (I had them jump to that right after completing the last third of City of the Spider Queen)!

Please feel free to email me out of thread (or post here or on a new thread, if need be) if you’d like any of my alterations and game notes. My group consisted of four 18-19th level PCs, as well as four 15-16th level cohorts, so I had to beef up the adventure a bit.

****minor spoiler***

Also, the Draconomicon was a godsend for me in terms of updating many of the bad guy, as well as the Big Bad Evil Guy in BoBS. I highly recommend that book if you have the funds.

The DC for the fear aura is 10 + half the sorcerer's racial hit dice + the sorcerer's Charisma bonus. <SNIP> With a Cha of, say, 22, then, his Save DC is 10 + 0 + 6, or 16.

I disagree with this interpretation. While it may fit a literal reading of the rules, it (IMXO) simply fails to match the spell's intent. Note it's not unbalancing to rule in favor of character level over racial hit dice, either.

J. Grenemyer

 

[Klaus]

Let's not forget that Chaos Hammer work just as well on a shapechanged Pit Fiend (or any Lawful foe), since it's a Chaos spell that the half-demon foes can get.

Also, since the BoBS sits on the Positive Plane, nearly everyone there gets the Extraplanar subtype, which means that Banishment can whisker a party member back to the Material Plane. If said member is a non-spellcaster, that ammounts to removing him from the adventure without actually killing the character.

Tons of foes in BoBS are half-red dragons. Since they already have fire breath weapons, find ways to give them non-fire attacks (specifically, attacks that can harm a pit fiend are good choices).

And finally, in BoBS you have to fight a couple of celestials (a planetar and a solar, iirc). Well, they count as good weapons. Slap a silver weapon on one of them and BAM!, your Pit Fiend is taking lethal damage!

 

[Will]

The 'hit points aren't changed' from Alter self, referenced by Polymorph and then Shapechange, is hotly contested.

As far as I know of, there is no canonical interpretation of this point. Some believe it points to 'you use the HD of the character, not however many base hit points the creature has.' Others believe it means you ignore the effect of changing Constitution.

Personally, in the absence of clear language, I treat changes in Constitution like it works everywhere else. But opinion is strongly split.

 

[Klaus]

For me hit points don't change and that's it. The only reference made to hp in Polymorph is that when changing back, you regain hit points as if having rested for a night. Changing hp based on the creature's Con would mean that, when you change back you *lose* said ammount (much like a barbarian's hp from rage), as they are not temporary hp.

 

[BSF]

Heh - I just noticed today that Frankinlondon has a BoBS conversion thread running in the conversions forum. Thoughts on converting BoBS to 3.5 (inc Spoilers)

 

[Navarp]

Well someone else already sugguested the best idea yet, and I think that everyone missed it. I would alter the landscape to make teleportation into or out of the area (but not in in) hard/impossible to do. Then I would have a baddie cast shatter. That should eleminate all of his material components. Problem solved.

 

[Narfellus]

I think someone did mention casting shatter, which is a great idea. In fact, this whole thread is spectacular because it gives very concrete GOOD ideas to handle high level magic. You don't want to destroy a character's practically godlike abilities, but at the same time you need to provide a worthy challenge. that's your job. you're the DM! And the ideas in this thread can be spread across the board during confronations with other monsters and/or spells. I especially liked the Blasphemy idea...

 

[FrankinLondon]

Heh - I just noticed today that Frankinlondon has a BoBS conversion thread running in the conversions forum. Thoughts on converting BoBS to 3.5 (inc Spoilers)

Ah yes, but that was before I realised the true horror of shapechange

I am running the module next Thu, so only have a week to re-write :\

I think it'll be alright. I have plenty of ideas from this thread.

Frank

 

[FrankinLondon]

I think that for the final battle in BoBS you ought to eliminate the Dydd effect and allow the big foe there (trying to avoid spoilers ) to fight at full capacity from the word go - you will already have to make major changes to his spells (since the haste tactic just won't work now) so I'd recommend running through his spell list and making obvious changes

(including *put some clerical spells in there!*. Did Bruce Cordell just forget about that little detail?). At the very least he ought to have Death Ward as one of his 4th level spells and Heal as one of his 6th level spells. In fact I'd suggest eliminating circle of death and globe of invulnerability and replacing them with Heal and Contingency. Then give him contingency(heal)

Meteor swarm was a stupid spell choice to give him - it is only half as good as his natural breath weapon that he can use every 1d4 rounds anyway! The real obvious spell for him to have is Mordenkainens Disjunction, enabling his peerless body to take out any likely foe. Failing that Miracle is another obviously good spell for him to choose, as is Time Stop (to enable himself to buff himself up fully when he first hears a party)

If you have access to the draconomicon I'd suggest giving him one or two metabreath feats too. Clinging Breath or Maximise breath are good options.

If I was Ashardalon and I saw a pit fiend or something else immune to fire I think I might do one of the following:

either:
big breath weapon to clear out the lesser foes then attack the pit fiend

or
something to discommode the pit fiend quickly. Best bet for that might be the Destruction power he has, but that is only a DC26 Fort ST. Good but not great. Most sure tactic is Blasphemy since it will send any real pit fiends away (and may get rid of shapechanged ones too) as well as preventing anyone else in the party getting an action that round (dazed or better results against everyone).

Physically the crush attack is Ashardalons best friend as that can spoil the day for a large group of people, even the pit fiend.

I don't know if any of these ideas help. Losing the two spells per round of the 3e haste is quite a loss in terms of power, these suggestions might even things up a bit.

Warning ! Bastion of Broken Souls Spoilers Below !


















Hmmm. I'm thinking of keeping the Dydd effect but modifying it so the party doesn't get a free round.

Cleric spells are a must.

MJ seems a little rough to me. I think I am going to give it to him but adopt a policy that if the party don't use it on my monsters I won't use it on them.

Don't have the Draconomicon. Wish I did. I particularly like the idea of Ashardy changing the type of his breath weapon (fire aint so good against Pitfiends).

Contingency (Heal) sounds good.

Question. Destruction is an SLA. SLAs have a DC of 10+1/2 hit dice + charisma bonus. Shouldn't that be DC 39 (ouch) ?

That brings into question the use of Blasphemy asa 40th level caster. Any party members below 30th level are killed without a saving throw. Double ouch.

Other than these small issues, I think I'm getting there.

Thanks again

Frank

 

[Plane Sailing]

Question. Destruction is an SLA. SLAs have a DC of 10+1/2 hit dice + charisma bonus. Shouldn't that be DC 39 (ouch) ?

That brings into question the use of Blasphemy asa 40th level caster. Any party members below 30th level are killed without a saving throw. Double ouch.

I only read in the module that the SLA were at caster level 19... I didn't notice that they had been dramatically ramped up in 3.5.

It highlights the insanity that is Blasphemy compared to, say, the power word spells which have a fixed limit to their effects.

Given the actual Destruction DC I'd say I'd have to open with that on a Pit Fiend in the encounter (since you can't power attack him as much as you'd like because of his AC and he's immune to your fiery breath). I wonder if he'll have got death ward from a friendly cleric or via Limited Wish at that point? If he has, he's fine. If he hasn't, he deserves to die in this kind of encounter, if he isn't preparing himself against worse case scenarios like that!

Cheers