DM Disconnect

[Lhorgrim]

Let me start by saying that the things I intend to discuss are my own fault and I am not blaming the system. I think there are several reasons for the issues I'm having, and 4E isn't the main culprit.

I am DMing 4E for a group at my FLGS. The group consists of 5 to 7 people who are friendly, but not really "friends" of mine. I only see them for game time.

We play every other Saturday. I would like to play every week, but many of the players are not available due to other commitments.

There are four core players that show up for every game, but there are two or three seats that get filled by different people on a random basis. Sometimes "Ted" will be there with his Dragonborn wizard, and sometimes "Bill" will be there with his Elf ranger. Sometimes they both show up, and sometimes neither does.

I started this game as a way to introduce new players to 4E, and hopefully develop a gamer base for some solid gaming groups. I am not meeting my own expectations. I have gotten these 7 or so people interested in playing the game, and I have helped my FLGS sell some books. I'm happy to help the FLGS, it gives me a place to play, and the owner is a great guy, but I haven't developed enough gamers to create a solid group, and none that want to try a turn behind the DM screen.

Here is my disconnect:

I don't know enough about the characters. With the notable exception of the ranger, I don't even know what weapons the characters are using. How can this be you ask? Because, the players just declare the power they are using and then the type of damage die it uses. "I'll use twin strike on the goblin...hit for ...uh... 12 points of damage." Again, this is my fault but I have explanations (excuses). I'm trying to learn the game at the same time I'm DMing it. I have a full time job and a family, so I don't stare at the books the way I did in middle school.

There are pages of powers for each character class, and every monster has different special abilities. I'm having a hard time playing without refering to the books constantly. I had hoped that after 6 or 8 game sessions I would be able to just remember enough to be confident in my ability to run without a net, but I feel like I know just enough to be dangerous. I'm supposed to be helping the players learn the game, but I rely a great deal on them to tell me what this or the other power actually does. One of my players doesn't seem to realize that Hunter's Quarry has to be the closest enemy, as opposed to whatever enemy you choose to target. I didn't know that until I was making a ranger NPC last night. I have no idea what other things we're doing wrong.

Not blaming the edition, but the "newness" of the system has caused more of a learning curve than I expected. Almost none of my previous experience with D&D translated over to 4E. It is so innovative that I'm having a hard time forgetting the old stuff and learning the new. I have a hard time hearing a player describe what a power does, and deciding if it sounds too powerful or too weak. This has thrown me off about when to double check a power we may be misreading. Hunter's Quarry in the example above didn't sound too imbalanced to me because of all the powers the monsters have which seem to be of equivilent utility. I just haven't "gotten" it yet.

My players and I seem to be putting so much effort into "learning" the game that we're not doing very well at "playing" the game if you get my meaning. The characters really do resemble a hand of power cards rather than characters with any personality.

Now that I've come to this realization, maybe I can elicit some roleplaying to flesh out the characters, but I'm afraid it's going to be some time before I'm confident in my rule knowledge.

I like 4E. I want to get a solid, regular gaming group together. I'd like to PLAY the game sometime. As a DM I feel a bit overwhelmed and just wanted to share the frustration I'm having. If I could get a core group of about four or five good players together I think I could really have some fun, but for now I guess I'll just keep grinding it out and hope it gets better.

Wish me luck.

 

[the Jester]

Relax. Let the players use their abilities and tell you what they do; look them up if you need to, but generally, let go. I try to read each pc's new powers through once so I have a general sense of how it works, but I really do rely on them for adjudication assistance in 4e. Don't worry about it; learn from your mistakes and correct them going forward. That's how I have been handling 4e, and we're about to enter the paragon tier imc; it is working fine.

It sounds like you're stressing too much. You really don't need to know every power, just the framework of the rules. And when you use monsters, you really do want the book open so you don't miss a reaction or interrupt.

About recruiting a group: what's wrong with the four solid players you've found? Have you tried the "gamers seeking gamers" forum here? I've picked up a couple of players via it, one of whom has stuck around long term and become one of my really good friends (hi Brain!).

I understand your frustration about learning vs. playing. How long have you guys been playing this game? My experience was that it took a good half-dozen sessions before we really loosened up in my 4e campaign; one of the things that might help would be to have a few encounters without goals, combat, skill challenges or traps, whose sole purpose is roleplaying. Maybe a ball or party, maybe a tavern scene where the pcs meet the npcs that will be important in the next adventure, maybe a political scene- who knows. Just spend some time interacting in character (with you playing a couple of npcs, of course) without dice or even really needing your character sheets.

Good luck- we seem to do just as much roleplaying as we did in earlier editions, now that we've shaken some of the stiffness out of the system.

 

[Obryn]

For any new gaming system, there'll be a growth period during which everything is kinda new, scary, and confusing. I have a few suggestions, though...

(1) Instead of power cards, use power checklists. Really, it's a small difference, but it will cut down on the shuffling quite a lot. It also may feel more "D&Dish" to you. Group them by at-will/encounter/daily, and run with it.

(2) It's not your job to know all their powers. Delegate this duty. If you trust their capabilities & judgment, let them tell you what their powers do. As a DM, you should pretty much never have to look up anything in the PHB.

(3) You may think this is drastic. I have found with every new game and edition that a player's second character has more personality than their first character. When you're struggling to learn the rules, you might not know the kinds of characters a game supports, or how everything fits together. Let them make all new characters, if they feel like it, without any XP penalty.

(4) Traits. Have every player pick 2 personality traits for their characters. Give bennies like extra XP, a recharged encounter power, or a token that gives +1 to 1 die roll, when they exhibit those traits.

(5) Encourage narration. One of the reasons you might not know their weapons is that powers just do cooler stuff than weapons do, nowadays. Weapons still matter - those proficiency benefits, crit properties, reach, and so on make a big difference - but it can be lost if you're not paying attention. If they need to describe the action a bit better, roll with it.

(6) Less combat. Try running more noncombat encounters, be they skill challenges or just pure RP scenes.

(7) Above all, don't stress out about making mistakes. If you're running a fun game that your players enjoy, you're doing it right. Good players won't throw a fit if you need to retcon a rule based on a simple mistake - explain how it works for the future and move on. Again, there's a lot of new stuff - you can't be expected to know all of it right away. Make your players sit down and read through their class abilities, maybe.

I hope at least a few of these help!

-O

 

[Nellisir]

Either take the character sheets home with you, or get the players to write up a quick copy. There are tons of powers in the books, but the players only have a few of them. Concentrate on learning those.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You have some things working against you. First, you are trying to learn a new system along with the players, while trying to run a campaign. Second, the first thing is hard enough without the players constantly changing.

It can get frustrating when you run a session and it starts to get really great towards the end and then half your group is brand new starting the next session.

My advice would be to run only one shot delve type stuff and concentrate on learning the game rather than focusing on campaign events with that kind of chaos. After you and the players are more comfortable with the game and the mechanics come more naturally, you can worry about campaign style play.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Don't worry about the player's powers. That way lies madness; allowing everybody to remember the details of everybody else's stuff was never in the design philosophy. Run your monsters, let your players run their characters, and don't worry about if they're doing it right unless something sounds really off. It's almost guaranteed that your group will, across the board, have less fun if you stop to check the rules for something minor with any kind of frequency. If you're reading the powers of your players, you'll never get anything done at all.

Real world example: I was running a game recently, and our rogue, who is a very casual player, was way in over his head on the rogue's capabilities and strategies. I'm confident that his math was off and all his damage and hit mods should have been higher than they were. I never once stopped to check, because he was having fun, and everybody else was having fun, and there wasn't any real kind of imbalance created. If I had double-checked his math or stuff or suggested other, more complex but tactically effective strategies, he wouldn't have been having fun anymore.

 

[Lhorgrim]

I appreciate the replies everybody.

I know I need to relax and enjoy the game more. This is my first time running a game in the FLGS, and I think I'm over pressuring myself to perform well for the players and the observers.

I kind of feel like the success of 4E in my area is balanced on my shoulders. No pressure.

The four players that make up my "every session" players are nice, but they aren't really available for a solid core group. One of them is a 14 year old who can't play long sessions due to school, karate, and other obligations. One has a job that prevents him from playing every weekend. I have two friends that I've played D&D with since 2E, but they flatly refuse to invest time in 4E. I guess they don't play at all anymore.

I have met a few folks on Gamers Seeking Gamers, but the distance was too great to have a regular game. My FLGS owner says he sells a lot of 4E stuff, but I guess most of the customers are in private, well established games.

I'm feeling more motivated now. Maybe I just had a case of the Mondays.
I have to go to a Commission meeting tonight at 6:30pm, mabe I'll take my laptop and work on some gaming stuff while the politicians drone.

Thanks for the moral support.

 

[maddman75]

I really like Dread style questionnaires for getting to know characters better. (if you don't know Dread, look it up - awesome game)

The way this would work is you just hand our a brief questionnaire with essay questions for the players to answer. Since they're already established, I'd just do 3-4, maybe doing more later. Make a couple of them fairly basic background type stuff, but make a couple of them provocative. For example, you might prepare these questions for a player

Why did you leave your homeland to become an adventurer?

What do you dream of, beyond riches and treasures?

Tell me about the most frightened you've ever been?

What would it take to convince you to betray your party?

Questions like this can provide some good GM fodder, but mostly serve to give the player a good basis for their character. The stuff Obryn posted is gold as well.

And like everyone else said, don't feel like you have to know all the powers by heart. Just worry about your monsters. There's really almost no call to open a rulebook during a 4e game.

 

[Nellisir]

Don't worry about the player's powers. That way lies madness; allowing everybody to remember the details of everybody else's stuff was never in the design philosophy. Run your monsters, let your players run their characters, and don't worry about if they're doing it right unless something sounds really off. It's almost guaranteed that your group will, across the board, have less fun if you stop to check the rules for something minor with any kind of frequency. If you're reading the powers of your players, you'll never get anything done at all.

One of his goals is to help the players learn the game. Personally, I find it goes easier if you know what the character can do. Also, it's easier to make encounters that play off of the character's abilities if you know what those abilities are.

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Oh, sure, he should know what classes they're playing, and the general functionality of their at-wills and class abilities, but he doesn't need to be memorizing how many [W] the fighter's third-level encounter power does or anything like that. If a player has a daily he likes that has some really particular effects, you might want to design an encounter in a way that he can use it really effectively. But don't worry about knowing what daily powers your character has; if he likes the daily power enough that you should prioritize it, then he's using it often enough that you'll start to remember it.

The players need to know the system, not their characters. If they know the system, they understand their characters. If they know their characters, they know nothing if they ever play in another game.