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DM Entitlement...

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Given the content, you may want to apologize instead.

;)

Agreed. I can't believe this thread hasn't been closed by now. Of course I keep coming back to see what new fights have broken out. Kind of like watching a car crash.:cool:
 

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This, for all the reasons listed.

In addition, someone has to be the final arbiter of most rules. Like it or hate it, that's traditionally part of the DM's role. He's the game master and the referee.

Agreed. I'm simply questioning that tradition in a very limited, specific case.

Yes, there are plenty of crappy DMs out there, just like there are plenty of crappy referees in the sport of your choice. One of the marks of a good DM, though, is that they actually do look at the desires and interests of the players as a whole (including their own) and make determinations that maximize the fun for everyone. Sometimes, that includes saying "no", for whatever reason.

Sometimes, "No, because I don't like it," also carries the weight of "I have a setting idea in mind that I think everyone will enjoy, but that concept doesn't mesh with it or I'm not sure how it will mesh with it." Maybe the right answer is to go with the DM's plan B setting, but maybe not.

Again, agreed. I agree with this 100%. My only issue is when the DM, in a moment of honesty with himself, does not have problems with "that concept doesn't mesh", but only has a problem because he doesn't like X.

Psionics are probably a poster child here. Lots of people don't like psionics. Yet, really, it's pretty hard to argue that psionics shouldn't exist for genre or meshing reasons in most standard campaigns. So, when the player says, "I want to play a psion", instead of the automatic "no" that some DM's do, step back for a second, examine why you are saying no and, if the only reason is because you don't like it, say yes instead.

In a perfect world, the guy who sits on one side of the screen alone makes the perfect call every time. But, we don't live in a perfect world and the call sometimes gets botched. Still, I think the GM tends to have the better position for perspective.

Again, sure. I'm not arguing that DM's should never say no. I'm simply arguing that IMO, you should not say no simply because you don't like X. ((Please note the SHOULD in that sentence for those claiming I'm forcing DM's to do anything))

What I will say, though, is that as a DM, most times I've had a tough call to make on whether to allow a character concept into a game and allowed it, it turned out to be an issue. When I denied it, it was generally fun for all. This holds true for all games I've run, whether it's a foreign, cosmopolitan character in a cozy, local starting town or the player that really wants to play a Werewolf in a Vampire game. My gaming experiences have strongly encouraged me to believe that boundaries are not only acceptable, but highly beneficial.

Again, 100% agreed. With the caveat that the boundaries get drawn with a stronger, more compelling reason than "I just don't like it."
 

Again, agreed. I agree with this 100%. My only issue is when the DM, in a moment of honesty with himself, does not have problems with "that concept doesn't mesh", but only has a problem because he doesn't like X.

Right, but "doesn't like X" feeds into not designing a setting where X is likely to fit in. Now, I'm not saying that the reasoning can't be irrational -- "I hate elves. Here's my long lived arcane race instead!" -- but people, being people, are sometimes irrational.

Psionics are probably a poster child here. Lots of people don't like psionics. Yet, really, it's pretty hard to argue that psionics shouldn't exist for genre or meshing reasons in most standard campaigns. So, when the player says, "I want to play a psion", instead of the automatic "no" that some DM's do, step back for a second, examine why you are saying no and, if the only reason is because you don't like it, say yes instead.

Psionics aside (I thin it is a really bad example; lots of folks think psionics are more appropriate to sci-fi than fantay, their origins in the game notwithstanding), I don't think the issue here isn't so much that people don't think that the DM might benefit from stepping back and examning their reasoning, but rather that the player in the situation feels entitled to play X even when the DM obviously dislikes and doesn't want to include X. If it is inappropriate for a DM to exclude something due to personal preferences, it is equally inappropriate for a player to demand something's inclusion due to personal preferences -- more so, perhaps, because the player invests far less time and effort into the game.

An anecdote or two to illustrate how complex this issue can be:

Many moons ago I started a 2nd Edition campaign in a pseudo-dark ages, germanic europe like setting. When we sat down to roll up characters (4d6-L, in order!) I gave only a few rules: no halflings (I didn't want hobbits, or kender, so I didn't know what to do with them), no gnomes (the gnolls ate them all), no elves (I knew I wanted to do something different with elves, but I didn't know what yet) and no ninja (what part of dark ages europe don't you people understand). So, as is inevitable, one player requested to play an elf ninja (what is it with elf ninjas, anyway). I balked, but he was persuasive and while everyone else was buying equipment and choosing spells and the like, we hashed it out and came to a compromise (found in the woods, amnesia, abusive foster father) that worked for both of us. the character not only ended up being one of two key characters in not just this campaign but the follow up one (as an NPC), the "elf ninja" bit enhanced the campaign by helping me find a place for elves ("When China Ruled the Seas").

There were lots of players in that game, though. one of them wanted to play a two weapon wielding ranger type. Great -- something easy and within the milieu I had created. That player/character lasted 3 sessions, but still managed to taint the entire campaign with his insipid BS.

The moral: a player that tries to get over isn't always wrong, and one that plays by the rules isn't always right, and a DM that says yes isn't always right and one that says no isn't always wrong.
 

Psionics are probably a poster child here. Lots of people don't like psionics. Yet, really, it's pretty hard to argue that psionics shouldn't exist for genre or meshing reasons in most standard campaigns.
It's hard to argue that sci-fi doesn't belong in a fantasy game? People have been doing just that since 1e. Of course, psionics also has a bad reputation in D&D because 1e & 2e psionics were horribly integrated into the rules.
 

If it is inappropriate for a DM to exclude something due to personal preferences, it is equally inappropriate for a player to demand something's inclusion due to personal preferences -- more so, perhaps, because the player invests far less time and effort into the game.

See, this is where I disagree for two reasons. First, the player is trying something positive - he wants to play something he likes. To me, this is not simply the opposite of not allowing someone else to play something I don't like. I realize that I seem to be the lone voice in the wilderness on this though. :)

Secondly, I mostly DM. I DM because I want to DM. I do not feel that the work I put into my campaign somehow entitles me to any special treatment. I don't see that so much. If I didn't want to do the work, I wouldn't DM. DMing, in this very limited circumstance, does not entitle me to put my preferences ahead of the player.

Note, again, I'm only speaking in a VERY limited sense.

The moral: a player that tries to get over isn't always wrong, and one that plays by the rules isn't always right, and a DM that says yes isn't always right and one that says no isn't always wrong.

Listen to this man, he is wise. :)
 

Secondly, I mostly DM. I DM because I want to DM. I do not feel that the work I put into my campaign somehow entitles me to any special treatment. I don't see that so much. If I didn't want to do the work, I wouldn't DM. DMing, in this very limited circumstance, does not entitle me to put my preferences ahead of the player.

The "work" of DMing varies wildly between individuals, though. in the past, you have made statements that strongly suggest you don't think much of the worldbuilding aspect and don't engage in it. As such, it might me more difficult for you to wrap your head around the idea that the player who won't shut up about playing an X being a pain. By the same token, I can hardly conceive of GMing without engaging in the worldbuilding aspect, even for a one shot, so it is hard to wrap my head around the idea that my preferences should not, in fact, trump the players' desires when the two are irreconcilable.


Listen to this man, he is wise. :)

Even a blind squirrel...
 



Actually, I really don't know what the blind squirrel refers to. :(

To me, it comes down to embracing the idea of "Say Yes". Say Yes basically boils down to, unless X is going to cause massive problems in your game, say yes. Adding a race is typically not a massive problem, so, say yes. If it is a massive problem, then say no. But, if the only problem is "I don't like it", not "This doesn't fit with the genre of my game" or "This breaks my game mechanically", then I don't really have a problem with saying yes. ((Note, those are only two of many examples, please, no one jump over me for not including an exhaustive list))

Like you yourself said, letting the player have his way wound up being a better experience for everyone at the table. So, the idea that the DM should always say no is problematic.
 

Actually, I really don't know what the blind squirrel refers to. :(
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while."

So, the idea that the DM should always say no is problematic.

NOBODY
said that.

What we're saying is that the DM can always say no and that it is never wrong for a DM to say no.*

*Actually, I do have a single caveat to that- the DM is wrong to say no when it is personal. IOW, he is saying no solely because he dislikes the player and wants to make things less enjoyable for that person.
 
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