D&D 5E [DM/Flavour Question] Reincarnating (over over until I am a female redhead bugbear)

[ghostofchristmaspast]

This is why errata is objectively bad. It's not simply clarifying rules, it's changing them. I'll stick to how it's written in the PHB thanks.

It came as an unwelcome surprise to me as well, hence all the Magic Jar and Reincarnation threads.
(BTW, sorry for the caps. I was making fun of people who download scans because "there is no pdf")

 

[TwoSix]

Actually, it's impossible to Reincarnate into a female redhead bugbear.

Everyone knows gingers don't have souls.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

This is why errata is objectively bad. It's not simply clarifying rules, it's changing them. I'll stick to how it's written in the PHB thanks.

Is it actually a change to the rules though? I can't find anything in the PHB that defines a "permanent" duration other than a duration of "lasts until it is dispelled".

As far as I can tell by reading the PHB, any effect that is actually "permanent" and can't be dispelled would actually have a duration of "instantaneous" since that is the only duration described in the PHB that mentions not being able to be dispelled.

 

[ghostofchristmaspast]

Is it actually a change to the rules though? I can't find anything in the PHB that defines a "permanent" duration other than a duration of "lasts until it is dispelled".

As far as I can tell by reading the PHB, any effect that is actually "permanent" and can't be dispelled would actually have a duration of "instantaneous" since that is the only duration described in the PHB that mentions not being able to be dispelled.

Yes and no. Look at Wall of Stone - it says it becomes permanent but means instantenious.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Yes and no. Look at Wall of Stone - it says it becomes permanent but means instantenious.

It doesn't just say "permanent" though, it says "permanent and can't be dispelled". That implies that anything which only says "permanent" is functionally no different from "lasts until dispelled."

 

[Sunseeker]

Is it actually a change to the rules though? I can't find anything in the PHB that defines a "permanent" duration other than a duration of "lasts until it is dispelled".

As far as I can tell by reading the PHB, any effect that is actually "permanent" and can't be dispelled would actually have a duration of "instantaneous" since that is the only duration described in the PHB that mentions not being able to be dispelled.

Last line of the first paragraph: "If you concentrate on this spell for the duration, the transformation becomes permanent." The spell also IS instantaneous in terms of casting as it only takes one action. The transformation is instantaneous as well, taking no time for it to take effect.

I don't know how else to take that other than, after an hour, it's not a magical effect anymore, it's now your normal body.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Last line of the first paragraph: "If you concentrate on this spell for the duration, the transformation becomes permanent."

Yes, but it doesn't say "can't be dispelled" like wall of stone does.

I admit that doesn't necessarily mean that it can be dispelled, because the clause found in the wall of stone text could be redundant. But if that clause isn't redundant, then the lack of it elsewhere does mean differen

The spell also IS instantaneous in terms of casting as it only takes one action. The transformation is instantaneous as well, taking no time for it to take effect.

Neither of those indicate duration, and only the duration of instantaneous would be relevant - in this case the spell's duration mentions concentration and a time limit (which is specifically not instantaneous).

I don't know how else to take that other than, after an hour, it's not a magical effect anymore, it's now your normal body.

The obvious way: it is a magical effect that will not end without outside influence (meaning something that dispels magic).

The only change I see the errata having made is to change text which implies indefinite duration ended only by dispelling effect (permanent, with no specific inability to dispel mentioned), to text which clearly and explicitly states indefinite duration ended only by dispelling effect.

Of course, I could be missing some definition of "permanent" duration that may be in the book - but that's because I've only looked for rules on how long durations are under the heading "Duration" near the beginning of Chapter 10, where the word "permanent" does not appear.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yes, but it doesn't say "can't be dispelled" like wall of stone does.

So? Wall of stone also mentions it's non-magical stone, so I think the "can't be dispelled" part is redundant. You didn't CREATE matter, you reshaped it. Polymorph is the same. You reshaped existing matter. Besides, I wasn't making the comparison to Wall of Stone as part of my argument. I think Wall of Stone's reasons for not being able to be dispelled are pretty strong without it saying it can't be dispelled.

I admit that doesn't necessarily mean that it can be dispelled, because the clause found in the wall of stone text could be redundant. But if that clause isn't redundant, then the lack of it elsewhere does mean differen

Sure, but I can't think of any other spells which specifically call themselves out as not being able to be dispelled. Wall of Stone's may be there for clarification against the other Walls, or it could be an artifact from an earlier writing.

Neither of those indicate duration, and only the duration of instantaneous would be relevant - in this case the spell's duration mentions concentration and a time limit (which is specifically not instantaneous).

I think the book is entirely unclear on what instantaneous means. Is it a spell that takes only a moment to cast? Is it a spell that lasts only a moment? That takes effect in only a moment? True Polymorph is cast instantaneously (one action), takes effect instantaneously, but lasts for up to one hour with concentration and is permanent beyond that.

The obvious way: it is a magical effect that will not end without outside influence (meaning something that dispels magic).

The way I read it, and the way I rule it, without outside errata is that the "magical effect" ends once concentration is up, ie: you are now 100% whatever you turned into and whatever you were is gone for good. Up until that point (the one hour of concentration) you are still you with a magical costume. The strength of the "book ruling" is that keeping it a "permanent magical effect" beyond the hour lets you keep the HP barrier, and your original self. The strength of the alternate interpretation is that you risk losing all your class features (or they risk losing all of theirs) after the hour is up. So after an hour the mouse remains a mouse forever. Personally, I like my ruling. Each have their own strengths.

If the RAI was that it remains a permanent magical effect, instead of simply a permanent transformation, I get that, but I think that's less fun. Dispel Magic is kinda boring IME.

The only change I see the errata having made is to change text which implies indefinite duration ended only by dispelling effect (permanent, with no specific inability to dispel mentioned), to text which clearly and explicitly states indefinite duration ended only by dispelling effect.

Of course, I could be missing some definition of "permanent" duration that may be in the book - but that's because I've only looked for rules on how long durations are under the heading "Duration" near the beginning of Chapter 10, where the word "permanent" does not appear.

I think, as I write above, that the difference is based on what is becoming permanent?

The cause? ie: the magical effect.
The result? Ie: the transformation.

If it's the former, I agree it should be able to be dispelled. If it's the latter, I don't think it should be.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I think the book is entirely unclear on what instantaneous means.

I've snipped the rest of your post because this single sentence is truly the heart of disagreement.

I find the book to be perfectly clear on what "instantaneous" means in context of the game rules, as the definition found for it within those rules (PHB p. 203, Player's Basic Rules pdf p. 79) is not vague in phrasing.

"The spell harms, heals, creates, or alters a creature or an object in a way that
can’t be dispelled, because its magic exists only for an instant."

Is it a spell that takes only a moment to cast?

Clearly not; "Instantaneous" is not a casting time listed in the game rules.

Is it a spell that lasts only a moment?

A spell that lasts only a moment is instantaneous, but not all spells that are instantaneous last only a moment.

That takes effect in only a moment?

It is more this: the magic of the spell exists only for a moment, even if what that magic does lasts much longer.

That's how damaging spells deal damage, but dispel magic won't restore hit points lost to those spells, how spells like augury bestow information that isn't forgotten after a set amount of time or because you were targeted with dispel magic, how hit points restored by cure wounds can't be re-lost by dispelling, and even how a spell removed by dispel magic can't be re-established by another dispel magic on the same target - because the magic, the cause of the effect, was over in an instant even though the effect remained.

True Polymorph is cast instantaneously (one action), takes effect instantaneously,

Instantaneous is a word given specific meaning by the game rules. Uses of the word outside of that specific game meaning are thus inappropriate, and seem to have the effect of making the rules appear unclear.

but lasts for up to one hour with concentration and is permanent beyond that.

But what does "permanent" mean as a spell effect duration? Is the meaning functionally different from "lasts until dispelled"?

The way I read it, and the way I rule it, without outside errata is that the "magical effect" ends once concentration is up, ie: you are now 100% whatever you turned into and whatever you were is gone for good.

I read it as if it saying that the duration changes from "Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour" to "Duration: Permanent"

Which I happen to find a little less than clear since there is no explanation given for what a permanent duration is/means - just instantaneous, concentration, and until dispelled or destroyed.

Personally, I like my ruling. Each have their own strengths.

I'm not claiming your ruling isn't likeable or that it doesn't have its strengths - I'm just saying I think your claim that the errata changed the rules is actually supported by the pre-errata text, which I have shown to support a functionally identical ruling to what the errata clarifies as the intent.

 

[Lehrbuch]

Is there any way of influencing the result of Reincarnate spell?

Accumulating good karma in your current incarnation should positively influence your next incarnation?