DM Limits for building adventures

[LostSoul]

Fine - my 1st level character walks into the throne room and attacks the king. He'd better be 1st level, and his bodyguard must stand by helplessly because they exceed my CR for the day. Of course if this new CR system comes with a "Handy Guide to Railroading" then I guess all these situations can be avoided.

My second thought is that, if the players want to kill the king (knowing it'll be a fair fight - although I'd make it that 5% Overwhelming encounter), I personally wouldn't have a problem. They kill the king! Awesome. Now what?

How about encounters with all sorts of people who want to grab the throne for themselves? How about people who want to put an heir of the King's back on the throne? The consequences of that fight could define the entire campaign!

I think that it would allow players to drive the game. I like that.

 

[EricNoah]

I do know sort of what you have in mind, and I've been thinking along those lines as well. I was thinking more about "resources" -- how many gp worth of traps, alchemist's fire, and poison can a 4th level goblin chief reasonably come up with to defend his lair? What interesting things can he do to reduce his costs (have traps that need to be manually reset, or dilute his poisons a bit)? Something that makes the story more internally consistent or something like that. Maybe ... something related to the amount of gear an NPC is "supposed" to have per the DMG -- another portion of money could be designated as funds for the lair. Or maybe that's just way too complicated...

 

[delericho]

It should certainly be possible to create a computer program to automatically generate adventures of a particular style. In particular, relatively closed dungeon adventures can be built with random generation. And setting up the system with appropriate CRs should be possible to give reasonable assurance (but never certainty) that they'll be roughly balanced for the party.

However, doing so will generate lots of really really bad adventures. Even a learner DM will be able to construct better adventures within three months of running his first game.

So, while it's a reasonable idea, I'm afraid I don't see any great value in it.

 

[Shadeydm]

I can't imagine tailoring everything in my game to be a "fair encounter" for the PCs.
Just because they stumble upon an evil cult or a dragon doesn't entitle them to a fair and balanced fight or a snowballs chance in hell of winning.
DMs don't need limits players need commonsense.

 

[gizmo33]

I think that it would allow players to drive the game. I like that.

Me too. That's why the issue of the king's level is one of demographics IMC. It's not based on the level that the PCs happen to be at the time.

And because dungeon elements often overlap with campaign elements (like kings and such), I can't make any promises as a DM about what CR encounters will be. Since PCs are allowed to run, I don't see why I should anyway.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Maybe not bad as a web tool to generate something on the spur of the moment. Add in some mad-lib-esque plots, maps with quasi-random placing, and maybe link it to the NPC Wiki for more character depth and you've got something handy for the busy GM.

Is it worth the work? Meh.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Maybe if the designer were realy really good, it could work, but how would he program fill out the CRs with appropriate monsters that make sense together? Sure in a wide wilderness, it is not that necessary, but in a tomb, having somehting that needs to eat would be a problem.

I jsut think it is not worth the effort. WIth any skill at DMing, making up something like that(at elast a skeletal idea) tkaes a lunchtime. And getting it ready for play only should tkae a few hours.

Or 2 minutes to pick up a Dungeon Mag and a few hours to prep.

 

[Janx]

Eric's come onto one of the uses for such a system. Since a DM has infinite resources, what constrains him to build a series of related, and rational encounters? Besides, hoping to not turn off his players.

What prevents the DM from having the BBEG being too high level (when the DM expects the PCs to fight it)?

What prevents the DM from having too many combats, period?

What prevents a DM from having too many encounters before a healing break for the PCs?

What prevents a DM from having run-on encounters that are effectively one big encounter?

Another thing to consider, in the case of dungeons and are CR controlled areas already. Level 1 of the dungeon averages to CR1 monsters, level 2 is CR2.


From a software perspective, generic random dungeons are the easiest to automate. Stereotypically, going down means tougher monsters, so the party knows what they're getting into. Building a more traditional adventure (ex Lord Evil has kidnapped the Princess, travel through his lands, sneak into his house, beat him up, take his stuff, save the girl) is a bit trickier. Have a system to balance things would be nice.

Oddly enough, folks are bringing up stuff I wouldn't worry about. I wouldn't re-level an area the PCs have been to before, if they decide to go back, unless I actually added a new problem to be solved there. Its just not worth the effort.

Also, IF you could have the PC auto-generate plots on the fly (and keep them ready, should the PCs decide to follow plot 2 after plot 1), you don't need the game stats for all the plots, just the one the PCs are following. Thus, the fact that plot 2 is level appropriate is no big deal.

Heck in my case, I tend to design one plot at a time anyway. Not everybody runs a campaign where everything is simulated and ready to be a plot at the same time.

Janx

 

[Wik]

You know, part of this could be used to provide a challenge for the GM, too. If a GM is given a random plot, and has some nasties that don't make sense, part of the fun could be combining those elements to make an interesting plot.

For example, let's say most of the challenges are themed around Orcs and some large animals, and the plot is "A nobleman seeks to stage coup at a ballroom party", getting the orcs there could be difficult. There could be a lot of "Winging it" involved on the part of the GM.

Most of my favourite sessions have involved such juxtapositions. A system like this, especially if it were semi-controllable (ie "No construct fights, please") would really save me time from statting up baddies (blah) and focusing on creating an interesting session.

Plus, I like the idea of a fair system that would allow me to be an "adversarial" GM without feeling too guilty. I had my first PC death in a while last week, and I've re-discovered my taste for blood.

 

[Dykstrav]

I can see where you're coming from, but ultimately I think it's one of these things that "reads good, doesn't play good." I'd have to actually see a system like this to be fair, but here's the reasons that I don't think it'd work.

1) Player knowledge. If players knew that there was some sort of system, they could exploit this system. I'm not trying to be adversarial to PC's, but these things already happen within the existing guidelines. Some players are good about keeping player knowledge and character knowledge seperate. Others aren't, whether it's deliberate or not. Adding another design system to the game results in some munchkin jabbering on at the table about the structure of the adventure. I kinda want these things to be mysterious to the players.

2) Randomness. Check out some of the random dungeon generators. They're cool, but most of the rooms are bland, 10 x 10 corridors connecting 30 x 30 chambers. Even those generators that try to have "theme" sets often leave alot of empty rooms or just silly monster combinations; such as a water elemental, fiendish centipedes, and an iron golem in the same room.

Check out the adventure design series on the WotC website, it's surpsingly good.

Personally, I usually DON'T make many encounters appropriate to the APL outside the adventure. The Haunted Forest has EL 10-12 critters, regardless of what the APL is. The Boring Plains have critters with ELs of 1-3. Players either realize that the Haunted Forest is too tough for them right now or get bored with fighting EL 1 critters in the Boring Plains. They feel motivated to check out the adventure, where the ELs match up with the APL. Yeah, it can be construed as railroading, but it doesn't feel like railroading.

Besides, one of the player types that really gets under my skin is the one who tries to fight everything, under the assumption that it's a challenge approriate to the APL. "Oh, it's a pit fiend with sorcerer levels? Hey, the DM must want to give us a big lump sum of XP all at once!"