D&D 5E DM question: Should I take it all back?

[DormanII]

Last night we had an epic session. The party were deep into a big plot about a group trying to release a powerful evil dragon into the world. It was incredibly tense, they had had many encounters along the way, they were worn out to the bone. Along the way I provided them with a stash of potions and a place that would give them the benefit of a long rest in exchange for damaging the land (it was a place of power that drew its energy from the land itself). Even then, they were having a though time dealing with all the enemies they had to kill in order to stop the summoning. Then before the ritual was finished, battered and bruised they found the big boss' ritual chamber. Three of them were knocked out, two of them failing to stabilize. The remaining one...pretty much did all the wrong choices and completing the ritual herself by accident.

Now, I love my players...they are my best friends...but they tend to not be very smart often times. They have lost many characters over the years we've played and I'm tired of party wipes and them losing characters all the time so I helped them out. I'm not really good at being subtle about it so everyone notices I fudged a few rolls here and there and when pressed for time, I came up with a stupid and convoluted way of saving them....divine intervention. The third downed player was hit and failed to stabilize this time, leading to her death. She was connected to some powerful spirits through background things and I basically gave her a wish. She wished that everyone came back to life and everyone did. Seeing everyone alive again, the boss (heavily hurt) opted to flee. The spirits also demanded a high price.....but I have no idea what it can be cause I can't think of anything.

Everyone survived, the evil dragon was released, the boss escaped...but everyone kept telling me after the session that I took it too easy and that they didn't deserve to be alive.

I've had some time to think and I figured out a few ways this could have gone much better. Even with the divine intervention, which mixes consequences and a bit of rule of cool.
So...tell me this, should I talk to my players and ask them if they want the other outcome? Should I change it all back? Or should I live with my horrible decision?

 

[delericho]

So...tell me this, should I talk to my players and ask them if they want the other outcome? Should I change it all back?

It's a tricky one. It would depend on just how badly your players object to the way things played out, and especially how they feel about being "cheated out" of their deserved deaths.

In general, I would recommend against taking back something like this - it's generally better to roll with it and push on. But I can't speak for you and your group. However, one thing I do strongly recommend: don't change it all back unless and until you've discussed it properly with your players!

Or should I live with my horrible decision?

In general, I would recommend this, especially if you can use that "steep price" and/or the freed dragon to take the story in a new and interesting direction.

 

[sim-h]

The other outcome appears to be a TPK? You might be better off asking them whether you should all start a new campaign with new PCs, glossing over the finale of that last one and leaving it to the imagination what *actually* happened.

I don't know what setting you're using or what you've prepared, so that might not be an option. I use only published adventures, and Curse of Strahd just came out. I'm just sayin....

Failing that, I suppose they have to track down the boss etc. The fudging will soon be forgotten, and you should press on, if you/they don't want a new campaign. I wouldn't rewind or reverse anything.

 

[Al2O3]

Now, I love my players...they are my best friends...but they tend to not be very smart often times. They have lost many characters over the years we've played and I'm tired of party wipes and them losing characters all the time so I helped them out.
[...]

Everyone survived, the evil dragon was released, the boss escaped...but everyone kept telling me after the session that I took it too easy and that they didn't deserve to be alive.


So...tell me this, should I talk to my players and ask them [...]?

Yes, you should talk to your players.

Do they have a problem with losing characters, failing missions etc? Do they want your help? What kind of help do they want if they want it? And yes, would they like a retcon or second attempt at last session? Also tell them why you help them and that you are tired of TPKs.

I guess a lot of other topics could come up as well, but you should definitely talk to them. And last session sounds like a symptom of a larger problem with differences in expectations. Check how heroic or gritty they want etc (and consider what you want).

 

[AriochQ]

This is the type of decision you needed to make a long time ago, and you did, by admitting you already fudge. The above scenario is exactly why I roll in the open whenever possible.

Here is how I look it:

No risk, no reward. The play experience is minimized when the players know they will succeed, no matter what (this is why your players were talking to you afterwards).

If I need to 'fudge', there are several way besides dice rolls that are more appropriate. I can have the NPC choose a suboptimal option to give the players more breathing room. I can throw in some sort of complication for the NPC, or one that benefits the players. I can have the NPC capture, rather than kill, the party. etc.

There are 3 scenarios that may call for fudge:
1. Bad plan - let the dice fall where they may.
2. Bad rolls - Usually I let the results stand, but I may help the party out to keep the storyline on track.
3. Bad adventure design - Players shouldn't die due to my incompetence, so this is most often where I will fudge.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Do you plan on continuing this campaign? If so then I would leave things as they happened. Moving forward, have an honest out of character discussion with your players. From your description of their reaction it seems that they would be happier letting the dice fall where they may. A good table buy in to the type of campaign you are running is the best way to avoid clashing expectations. If the players want to fully own their mistakes and just flat out wipe or lose when events naturally lead to that then taking that away from them can decrease enjoyment for them. Its just a game after all and new adventurers are easily generated.

Also think about why you used DM intervention to provide a miracle. What kind of game do you enjoy most and how does that conflict or complement what your players enjoy?

 

[ThirdWizard]

The moment is over, and the deed is done. Going forward, I'd have a talk with them about game expectations and how they would like you to handle fudging. If they would rather have let the dice fall where they may in this encounter, then in the future I would say continue what appears to be a well crafted game, but stop the fudging. Everything should fall into place at that point. And, if they decide that they don't like the lethality that they asked for, then that's fine, and everything can go back to the way you've been doing it.

 

[DormanII]

I've been DMing for a couple of years now and I seldom fudge rolls and usually let the dice fall where they may. This has led to many deaths (we play very often, sometimes several times a week) and we even have a graveyard where we place all the dead characters...and it is full. But recently, seeing people playing online and seeing them progress with the same characters for years and having these long, indepth stories for each of them and for the party in general...I started craving a party like that.

So when it came to the party making some...frankly, awful choices and ignoring/missing some options that were right in their face, I just couldn't help but try to help them. Killing player characters is a horrible feeling...I hate it the bitter taste it leaves, eventhough it has happened quite a lot so I may have been a bit too obvious when trying to stop another party wipe (because frankly, they should have died if I had played everything straight).

Now...I got one player complaining that I went easy and they should have died. Another saying that maybe I went too easy (but saying it nicely). Another who's happy with the outcome. And finally, one player that wants to play another character...but that player is integral the the "price" the spirits will demand since that character was the conduit...

My idea for a different outcome was to chance the result of the wish when divine intervention happened. The one asking for the wish asked for everyone to be alive, instead of resurrecting them however...I was thinking of having time go back to the round before everything took an awful turn. After time would turn back, the wish maker would be the only one that would remember the alternate future and I'd talk to the player so he would jump into the well of power. That player would get a major power-up, giving them incredible powers but also the overload of energy would kill the character. The powered up character would easily be able to beat the boss and prevent the summoning.

(Extra info: They faced the big boss while they were hurt, and weakened. The Boss was a powerful spellcaster and his wife was a strong melee fighter that was helping him. What made everything go to heck was the one of them managed to break the spellcaster's concentration and immediately after the wife was killed, causing the boss to become enraged and instead of focusing on the ritual, focus on killing the party...which he did with a single spell. After that, the boss tried to stab his magical spear into the well of power to complete the ritual another way, which would break the legendary spear and drain his wife's soul...but the sole survivor stopped him...and proceeded to stab the same spear into the well of power, thinking it was going to make it explode.)

At least two of my players just told me that they want me to take it all back, but want a party wipe they deserve. That they want me to take back the wish because they feel I helped too much and they should have died.

 

[Jester David]

So...tell me this, should I talk to my players and ask them if they want the other outcome? Should I change it all back? Or should I live with my horrible decision?

Always look forward, not back.

Find another way for their failure to matter. The dragon rampages across the countryside. People die. Maybe their home town gets razed.

The spirits take their horrible price from the character. Dunno what.
Or maybe everyone came back but their souls didn't. Because spirits and not gods.

 

[iserith]

Last night we had an epic session. The party were deep into a big plot about a group trying to release a powerful evil dragon into the world. It was incredibly tense, they had had many encounters along the way, they were worn out to the bone. Along the way I provided them with a stash of potions and a place that would give them the benefit of a long rest in exchange for damaging the land (it was a place of power that drew its energy from the land itself). Even then, they were having a though time dealing with all the enemies they had to kill in order to stop the summoning. Then before the ritual was finished, battered and bruised they found the big boss' ritual chamber. Three of them were knocked out, two of them failing to stabilize. The remaining one...pretty much did all the wrong choices and completing the ritual herself by accident.

Now, I love my players...they are my best friends...but they tend to not be very smart often times. They have lost many characters over the years we've played and I'm tired of party wipes and them losing characters all the time so I helped them out. I'm not really good at being subtle about it so everyone notices I fudged a few rolls here and there and when pressed for time, I came up with a stupid and convoluted way of saving them....divine intervention. The third downed player was hit and failed to stabilize this time, leading to her death. She was connected to some powerful spirits through background things and I basically gave her a wish. She wished that everyone came back to life and everyone did. Seeing everyone alive again, the boss (heavily hurt) opted to flee. The spirits also demanded a high price.....but I have no idea what it can be cause I can't think of anything.

Everyone survived, the evil dragon was released, the boss escaped...but everyone kept telling me after the session that I took it too easy and that they didn't deserve to be alive.

I've had some time to think and I figured out a few ways this could have gone much better. Even with the divine intervention, which mixes consequences and a bit of rule of cool.
So...tell me this, should I talk to my players and ask them if they want the other outcome? Should I change it all back? Or should I live with my horrible decision?

You basically can't go wrong by discussing it as a group and coming to an agreement as to how to proceed. So start there. Be prepared for the idea that you'll be starting a new campaign. If you end up continuing, a good price for the powerful spirits to demand is for the PCs to undertake a difficult quest of some kind.

As far as the other issues going forward, making hitting 0 hit points mean something other than potential death may be a solution. Including more challenges that aren't about hit point whittling is another option. Consider also making Hero Points, a DMG option, a thing in your games.