D&D 5E DM Quits The Game

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Not a problem in pre-3e. Because XP to level doubles each level, you can miss a bunch of sessions, or come in at a lower level, and then catch up in level very quickly.
I'm lost - you are saying it's easy to catch up to the rest of the group in an XP system that inherently has characters of equal XP at differing levels (within a range of about 4, typically), and cite the trait of that XP system which is responsible for extremely slow default level gaining pace as the reason why that's true... it's completely backwards from my experiences, especially once you include the rules for dying and returning to life.
 

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I think that is a case of being confused about what is actually fair. The player that has complaint that a player unable to participate as much (i.e. one that has less opportunity to have fun gaming) is being rewarded as much as they are, and is completely missing that it is actually the complaining player that has the benefit because they get to be there having fun gaming the whole time.

Also, it would be unfair to all of the players to have the character of the player that can't show up as early as the others receive less treasure and experience because that player has the disadvantage of being less potent than their peers, and all the rest of the players have the disadvantage of having to rely upon a less potent companion which makes them more likely to have trouble overcoming challenges.

Clearly the person complaining sees XP as one of the rewards for gaming (other gamers may value XP very little or not at all, but it is clearly important to the person complaining).

So I can understand that this person is getting upset that the late person is getting rewarded just as much as he is, despite the fact that they are there for more game time.

It would be the equivalent to having a job that starts at 9am and ends at 5pm. Everyone gets paid the same, yet one person constantly arrives at 11am every day. Now it could be that the job is so much fun that coming to work is a reward in and of itself, but surely you can see how others may argue that the money you get paid (i.e. XP in a D&D game) is what they're coming to work for and that it isn't fair that everyone gets the same when one person is there for less time every day.
 

Not a problem in pre-3e. Because XP to level doubles each level, you can miss a bunch of sessions, or come in at a lower level, and then catch up in level very quickly. 5e has this a bit too - my 5e PCs are rarely more than 1 level apart, even after a guy dies and his new PC has half the XP of the old one he'll soon be similar level again.

In 3e & 4e I tend to find a single party xp tally works best though, yup.

In 3.xE there is a bit of a catch-up mechanism in that if a group of 5th and 7th level characters defeat a CR7 challenge, the 5th level characters will get more XP from the fight than the 7th level characters. So they start to catch back up.

Assuming no-one else dies and everyone gets XP for all fights (i.e. you don't have the party splitting up and getting XP separately for bits) the lower level PCs probably won't fully catch up in XP, but it shouldn't take too long for lower level PCs to get back to within a level of the higher level PCs.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Clearly the person complaining sees XP as one of the rewards for gaming (other gamers may value XP very little or not at all, but it is clearly important to the person complaining).

So I can understand that this person is getting upset that the late person is getting rewarded just as much as he is, despite the fact that they are there for more game time.

It would be the equivalent to having a job that starts at 9am and ends at 5pm. Everyone gets paid the same, yet one person constantly arrives at 11am every day. Now it could be that the job is so much fun that coming to work is a reward in and of itself, but surely you can see how others may argue that the money you get paid (i.e. XP in a D&D game) is what they're coming to work for and that it isn't fair that everyone gets the same when one person is there for less time every day.
I think any analogy that likens playing D&D with work is doomed to seem entirely nonsensical to me - if a player didn't actually view any part of the game besides xp as a reward, I'd take that as the player finding my game completely unenjoyable if not for the one saving grace of getting to fiddle with the widget that is his character sheet (which is the one part of the game the player can get without having the rest of us at the table waste our time failing to entertain them while sharing their company).

I find it more accurate to equate D&D playing to a job by having the enjoyment of the play and shared company be the paycheck (you get out what you put in), and having experience points be office supplies (which everybody can use equally, even if their shift ends up starting later than everyone else).
 

I think any analogy that likens playing D&D with work is doomed to seem entirely nonsensical to me - if a player didn't actually view any part of the game besides xp as a reward, I'd take that as the player finding my game completely unenjoyable if not for the one saving grace of getting to fiddle with the widget that is his character sheet (which is the one part of the game the player can get without having the rest of us at the table waste our time failing to entertain them while sharing their company).

I find it more accurate to equate D&D playing to a job by having the enjoyment of the play and shared company be the paycheck (you get out what you put in), and having experience points be office supplies (which everybody can use equally, even if their shift ends up starting later than everyone else).

I'm just suggesting that not everyone views the best bit of D&D (or any roleplaying game for that matter) as the actual act of playing itself.

Some people like to game to get XP (just in and of itself), some like to game to do cool stuff (remember that time I climbed on the back of the dragon and stabbed it in the eye!), some like to game to get cool stuff (remember that time I got a Holy Avenger, that was awesome!), some like to play to feel like they're part of a cool story, like a movie that they help determine the outcome, some like to play just to escape from reality.

Not everyone is playing for the same reasons is the point I'm trying to make, which also influences what they think is "fair" and "not fair".
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
I'm going to respond to your statements in a different order than you made them, as that will better frame my response. Hope that doesn't confuse anyone.

I'm just suggesting that not everyone views the best bit of D&D (or any roleplaying game for that matter) as the actual act of playing itself.
That confuses, because:

some like to game to do cool stuff (remember that time I climbed on the back of the dragon and stabbed it in the eye!)
Is the actual act of playing itself.
some like to game to get cool stuff (remember that time I got a Holy Avenger, that was awesome!)
Is the actual act of playing itself.
some like to play to feel like they're part of a cool story, like a movie that they help determine the outcome
Is the actual act of playing itself.
some like to play just to escape from reality.
Is the actual act of playing itself.
Some people like to game to get XP (just in and of itself)
Is the one and only thing you have mentioned which isn't the actual act of playing itself, it's just doing a bit of math that can actually be completely skipped out on and yet still have the people involved being actually playing the game, where as failing to do anything cool, escape reality, and achieve cool things for your characters means failing to actually play the game.

Not everyone is playing for the same reasons is the point I'm trying to make, which also influences what they think is "fair" and "not fair".
There is a point at which a person is simply wrong about what is fair and what is not fair, and I think it is important to point out their error rather than try to accommodate their belief simply because they believe it - whether it is a kid that thinks it's not fair that they have to share their toys like everyone else shares with them, or an adult that thinks me choosing to keep everyone's characters at equal level for the sake of the entire group is unfair because they have a ridiculous idea what the point of playing a table-top role-playing game is.
 

Let's look at one reason.

"Doing cool things" occurs during the "act of playing".

However the reverse, is not necessarily true. The "act of playing" does not mean that you are "doing cool things".

A player could leave a group because he wasn't given the opportunity to "do cool things" (maybe the DM shuts him down with a series of difficult rolls every time he suggests a "cool thing" that he wants to do).

You are entitled to your opinion as to what is fair and what is not fair (as is everyone). However, I think you are a bit over the top in suggesting that someone's belief that a person arriving late gets the same XP as those that show up on time being unfair is akin to a kid not sharing their toys.

Also, I should point out that I'm not necessarily sure where I fall in terms of whether the person arriving late should get less XP than everyone else. My opinion would likely depend on why the person was continually late (unavoidable due to work, kids, etc. - probably don't take issue with it, simply due to that person not being organised - it would definitely annoy me).
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
However, I think you are a bit over the top in suggesting that someone's belief that a person arriving late gets the same XP as those that show up on time being unfair is akin to a kid not sharing their toys.
And I think you are being a bit silly to assume that because I have listed two examples that I am saying they are akin to each other, when the way I listed them actually suggests that I was expecting you would believe the process normal in one situation (teaching a child to share toys) but would disagree with me believing it normal in another (teaching a gamer that their idea of fair is actually unfair even to their self in a way they haven't yet considered).
 

Demonspell

Explorer
Maybe your character is squishy, and can't afford to take risks? Should a player be punished for playing carefully? Maybe you are playing a character that is careful by his/her very nature? Should role playing be punished?
Yes, they should; however, if being careful is part of the character’s personality, and they play it that way, then they should receive xp for roleplaying well. I also consider the characters contributions to the story.
For example, in one of my current campaigns, one of the players has an Elan Psion. His character believes he is a God and he does not like to get his hands dirty. Everyone else does the fighting and he stands back watching and gives orders mostly about who to kill and who to save. When it’s all over he applauds their party’s actions, then he scoops up those that were subdued and begins preaching to them about the wrongs and he works to “convert” those the party has beaten. His character adds a lot to the story that helps him keep up with the party in experience while limiting his involvement in much of what the party does.
These are the reasons why I don't presume to know why my players do what they do. I just let them do it, and do not punish them for it (unless they do something really stupid).
Not giving a player experience or giving them less experience than the rest of the party isn’t a punishment. When I give experience I AM rewarding the players for their involvement in the story. The amount of that reward should reflect their contribution.
I don't want to always encourage my players to take risks, because sometimes caution is called for.
And in those cases, I would argue that being cautious should be rewarded, especially if the party develops a creative way to handle the situation.
How do you reward that?
By rewarding them based on their contribution.
If I get my players into this mindset that they must take risks, or they'll miss out on exp, then that could very well ruin the game.
That is a possibility, or it could make the game more fun as they push the limits of their characters and start coming up with creative solutions to your challenges. You really won’t know what effect it will have till you try it.
I want my players to role play their characters in the way they feel comfortable playing, and in the way they think suits their character.
The reward them for good roleplaying, especially if that suits their character.
Some players play careless by their very nature. I have such a player in my group. He takes rash actions, and risks, and often gets into trouble. Sometimes this works out alright, and sometimes it doesn't.
And the reward he receives should be commensurate with the contribution to the story and the benefits, or peril he brings to the party.
But another player in my group is a less experienced role player. He prefers to not take risks, and often needs the DM to give him a moment in the spotlight, so that he is not overshadowed by the rest of the group. Should he reap less rewards? Should I punish him for the simple fact that he's not as experienced at D&D as the rest? Do I want him to feel left behind? Do I want him to feel like the lesser player of the group? ...All of these are negative reinforcements.
Not at all, but again, the reward he receives should reflect the character’s contribution. I have a player that is new as well, and he needs plenty of encouragement. I frequently stop play, and will describe the situation just to him. I ask questions about how the situation makes him feel, and how he would respond. Then I turn the question around and ask if that is how his character would react. Usually the answer is no. “How would he react?”
I encourage him to push himself to roleplay the character, then I reward him accordingly. The only way he will get better is by testing what he can do and attempt to push the limits of his imagination.
My take on this, is that I reward the great moments of any of the players with experience for the whole group. I find that it doesn't encourage players to lean on the more pro-active players. Instead, it encourages them to role play too. It makes it fun for the whole group. No one gets left behind. Everyone adds to the reward for the whole group, and this helps to get them to keep working together.
To each his own, as I see it, rewarding group experience doesn’t encourage team work, it discourages individual creativity, and limits the character’s roleplaying contribution to the storyline.
Also, experience variance isn’t a punishment. It’s a differentiation of contribution. You want more xp contribute more, if you don’t care contribute less. Besides, the reality is over time it all balances out, because one day John may be very active, but the next he won’t be. He’ll get lots of xp one day, and the next he’ll get less.
 

I've had to retrain my players to be on time, because we've all been involved in more casual games in the past, but I'm trying to run a more on the ball game.

I've set a number of strict times to determine when game starts depending on how many people are here by then. The more I demonstrate I'm sticking to it, the more punctuality that develops. It's really just a matter of giving the players help, in the form of concrete deadlines.

Pregame: 7:00
Everyone here start: 7:15
1 player missing start: 7:22
2 player's missing start: 7:30

With more than 2 players missing we'd cancel game anyway. So if you aren't there by 7:22, you know there's a good chance we've started without you, and if you aren't there by 7:30 we've definitely started. Characters are always present, so I just run their character until they get there unless I have other instructions. Once someone arrives they get a 2 minute or less review and then hit the ground rolling.

I can make exceptions if I know in advance of potential late arrivals, etc.

I don't punish anyone or their character for being late or absent. Missing out ought to be punishment enough if I'm creating a game they want to participate in. I just don't feel that those who are present should have their enjoyment reduced via waiting around for others to arrive.
 
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