DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies

[Wraith Form]

** YAWN! **

OK, I'm a new(-ish) DM looking for DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies, and I'd very much like to return to the topic now, please.

 

[kolikeos]

Enlarge person is a first level spell that gives you a +4 to grapple, disarm, trip, bullrush and overrun.
A first level fighter focused on disarming with the help of a first level wizard (to cast enlarge person) can have a +1(BAB) +2(weapon) +4(improved disarm) +4(2 handed weapon) +4(enlarge person) = +15 to disarm! with that kind of bonus I can try to disarm the 8th level barbarian's greataxe while he's raging! An 8th level barbarian might think he can mow down 8 1st level losers, but if 2 are wizards who cast enlarge and the others are fighters with flails and ranseurs he's in for a tougher fight than he expected.

Oh, and another thing: Tower sheilds are very good when you need to close up with the archers. Use the total cover option while moving towards them, that way they can't hit you until you can hit back and then you get all kinds of AoOs.


Have an intellegant bad guy observe the PCs fighting a few times. He can send some mooks and use scrying. or he can be present during the fight and dimension door away as soon as the the PCs come for him, or just stay invisible the whole battle and making sure the mooks never give the PCs the reason to cast see invisibility. Now he knows exactly how the PCs fight so there is no need for general tactics.

 

[Jhaelen]

Those are just a few generic ideas off the top of my head. More info about the PC levels and class breakup would make it easier to make specific suggestions, Jhaelen.

Thanks for the suggestions thus far
I didn't want to derail the thread too far from it's original general topic but since it seems pretty much derailed already, here's my group's current setup:
- Barbarian 7
- Fighter 6 / Lasher 2
- Ranger 4 / Fighter 2 / Initiate of the Bow 2 (? might also be Fighter 3 / Initiate 1)
- Rogue 7 / Shadowdancer 1
- Druid 7
- Cleric (Fharlanghn) 3 / Wind Wizard* 3 / Mystic Theurge 2
- Wilder 7
- Kineticist 7
* Homebrew Specialist Wizard getting access to arcane versions of several druid spells as part of his specialty 'school'.

Typical tactics:
The main damage dealers are obviously the psion & wilder. Both have long range powers if required.
The druid starts by summoning some critters or adds to the carnage with damage dealing spells before changing shape supporting the tank(s).
The mystic theurge is typically delaying and summoning/blasting, too, healing as required.
The shadowdancer either starts by hiding and using his bag of tricks to summon a critter or using spring attack. Later he uses flanking to sneak attack.
The ranger is hiding and sniping if possible (preferably from a large distance) or just firing away if he seems to be in no immediate danger.
The lasher attacks with two whips staying behind the barbarian to attack from reach or sets up a flanking position.

 

[kolikeos]

I'd also like to add Grapple The Spellcasters (probably a very common tactic and probably mentiond before in this thread). But I doubt it will work so well against clerics and druids...

 

[kolikeos]

- Barbarian 7
- Fighter 6 / Lasher 2
- Ranger 4 / Fighter 2 / Initiate of the Bow 2 (? might also be Fighter 3 / Initiate 1)
- Rogue 7 / Shadowdancer 1
- Druid 7
- Cleric (Fharlanghn) 3 / Wind Wizard* 3 / Mystic Theurge 2
- Wilder 7
- Kineticist 7
* Homebrew Specialist Wizard getting access to arcane versions of several druid spells as part of his specialty 'school'.

Barbarian, Lasher, Ranger = Disarm
Mystic, Kineticist, Wilder = Grapple (I don't know much about psionics but I'm assuming they'll have trouble casting spells just like a wizard or sorcerer during a grapple)
Those tactics depend on the attackers being close enough to the party, so you'll need to set up a good ambush. Waiting behind a wall is good, you might not have surprise but you don't need a hide check for it either.

 

[Celebrim]

** YAWN! **

OK, I'm a new(-ish) DM looking for DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies, and I'd very much like to return to the topic now, please.

As I said before, answering this question with any degree of usefulness very much depends on the particular monster you wish to challenge the PC's with. There are too many factors involved unique to a monster that may change the tactics of a particular monster and the overall approach to the encounter you take to make it challenging. You would do different things with monsters with high mobility than low mobility, strong ranged attacks or no ranged attacks, high AC or low AC, strong attack bonus or weak attack bonus, and different combinations of any of that can subtly change how you'd play the monster to best effect. Several of us attempted to answer this in a really general way, but I do understand that such necessarily broad brush strokes aren't particularly helpful.

Now, if you are actually interested and not merely smarting off with the above comment, I would be more than willing to help you - as I'm sure many of us would despite our disagreements on this issue or that.

What sort of monsters did you have in mind to throw at the PC's? I think we've probably had enough of kobolds, but anything else you have in mind, throw it out there.

As a broad suggestion, just about any monster can be made challenging but the ones that can be made most easily challenging are the ones which possess some something intrinsic which is superior to what the PC's have - be it the ability to swim, fly, faster movement rate, immunity to something - or which have an unusually high something for thier CR, like say the Rhino's unusually high attack bonus and damage potential for its CR.

 

[Wraith Form]

Now, if you are actually interested and not merely smarting off with the above comment, I would be more than willing to help you - as I'm sure many of us would despite our disagreements on this issue or that.

Considering that Morrus & Co. are tossing people off the boards at the drop of a hat, I'm more than a little surprised about your attitude.

Your posts have degenerated into side-discussions about things that have literally nothing to do with the topic of this thread and plain being argumentative. If you'd like a moderator to look over the thread, I'd be happy to call one over.

I'm attempting to get things back on topic. There has been more than one request to get back to that topic, so let's get there instead of accusing me of 'smarting off'.

 

[Darklone]

Jhaelens Party: If you want to use many low CR monsters like goblins or kobolds without too many class levels, use hit&run tactics. You'll have casualties but you might succeed in wasting the wilders and psios PPs as well as the druids spells.

Then swarm them after targeting the melee monsters with a few Will save spells. Kobolds are nice for these tactics since their lawful attitude helps obeying orders from their clever superiors.

Haunt the group and don't let them go to rest too easily. In the wilderness, it's nearly impossible for the group to stay out of sight from scouts.

 

[Celebrim]

Considering that Morrus & Co. are tossing people off the boards at the drop of a hat, I'm more than a little surprised about your attitude.

Your posts have degenerated into side-discussions about things that have literally nothing to do with the topic of this thread and plain being argumentative. If you'd like a moderator to look over the thread, I'd be happy to call one over.

I'm attempting to get things back on topic. There has been more than one request to get back to that topic, so let's get there instead of accusing me of 'smarting off'.

So, in other words, you weren't actually interested in a discussion?

If you are interested in discussing challenging PCs with weaker enemies on any level, practical or theoretical, I'm all for it. Shilsen for example has been discussing things on a very practical level. That's cool, and I'm happy to contribute to that.

I've been more interested in discussing several theoretical aspects of challenging PC's with lower level creatures that I feel directly impact the DM/player relationship. In part this is because I think substantial discussion of practical aspects need to move from the general to the specific if we are to wring any more out of that topic. Several posters have already made suggestions in that area, and we are largely at this point repeating ourselves with broad general suggestions like, 'take advantage of cover'. And I was prompted in part by complaints by people in the thread that practical suggestions of maximizing the threat of monsters was too adversarial approach to DMing, which is I think a somewhat legitimate complaint, and a case like 'Tucker's Kobolds' struck me as a case in point. The question of the 'style' and 'tone' of how a DM challenges his players and the approach that he takes to that is I think very much a legitimate component to a discussion of 'DM tricks to challenge tough PCs' with weaker enemies. "Why would you want to do that?" "What does actually constitute a weaker enemy, is it merely the perception of being weak?" "What is meant by a challenge?" and "What aspect of the scenario actually makes the weaker enemy challenging?" are IMO also relevant topics, and if you don't think so I'm perfectly willing to demonstrate why they are relevant, starting with they are likely to impact how much fun your players experience in either the short or long run. A number of posters challenged my conclusions in these areas. Whether they were argumentative in doing so is less important than that they had something to say.

What is it that you really want to talk about? You want to talk about the topic, or do you want to talk about the thread?

 

[Land Outcast]

If you want to use many low CR monsters like goblins or kobolds without too many class levels, use hit&run tactics. You'll have casualties but you might succeed in wasting the wilders and psios PPs as well as the druids spells.

Indeed, I used a Hellhound pack (16 regular hellhounds) against a 10th level party... after 4-5 succesful hit and run strikes, the party fled .