DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies

[molonel]

Ex encounter: Put Kobold Rogues hiding near a well-hidden pit trap, and when the first person falls in, have the rogues jump out and gain suprise round sneak attack. Maybe they even have Cover set up a little further down the corridor, so while 1 (or more) party members try to get out of the pit, they're flinging raned attacks from behind cover on the Other side of the pit. Characters will have to get over the pit, or deal with their cover from range.

This is a personal pet peeve, but I am SOOOO tired of the old "I'm going to skool you with these weak kobolds and their traps!" trick.

 

[Celebrim]

Actually, back in the day, a 20 was a crit.

This was a fairly common house rule among 1st edition parties that used the optional rules for critical hits (and not all of them did), but if you read the rules on the crit/fumble table from Dragon magazine I believe you'll see that this rule isn't actually the official rules. I'm fairly sure that the official rule was that the chance of a crit was equal to 1% per point that the 'to hit' roll was above the required roll to hit. Thus, if you needed a 20 to hit, you couldn't get a crit at all.

So you are making a series of assumptions here.

 

[mmadsen]

When the high-level adventurers face the low-level kobolds and lose, because the kobolds aren't following the rules, I'm inclined to think of asymmetrical warfare.

 

[Celebrim]

When the high-level adventurers face the low-level kobolds and lose, because the kobolds aren't following the rules, I'm inclined to think of asymmetrical warfare.

Sure. Obviously, it will have to be.

But is it really asymmetical warfare or is it just that the DM is more inclined to give himself the benefit of the doubt and taking care of his own? Asymmetical welfare.

It's one thing to not be following the enemies rules, and another thing to not be following the laws of physics. Asimulational warfare.

 

[Jhaelen]

Maybe your idea of encounter design is so hard to understand for me because I've taken the exactly opposite approach. I've found the best way to challenge my players is to create higher HD/CR opponents that are build for durability and style far more than raw power.

A well done higher CR/EL encounter that puts the players on the edge without more than one death/PC going down is just as hard to craft as a similar encounter with lower hd opponents. The difference is that this encounter takes longer, as the opponents are far more durable. In my more recent campaigns there was rarely a battle that lasted less than 8 to 10 rounds.

Interesting. Do you think this can work against large parties as well? I've got 8 players and I've pretty much given up trying to challenge them using a single high CR creature. The 'best' I can hope for is getting to act first and take out one or more characters in the first round. There's rarely a second round unless it's an ambush situation.

Unfortunately, it's ALSO difficult to challenge them using lots of low CR creatures. Again, if it's an ambush situation with the enemies being able to surround the party and spread out and/or can use cover, it's slightly better, but not by much.

So, it looks like using balanced CRs (or a mix of CRs - IF it is difficult to initially identify the more powerful ones) might work best against large parties. What also seems to work well is using several waves of enemies - but that's no longer really a single encounter.

Does anyone else have experience in / advice on challenges for large parties?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Sure. Obviously, it will have to be.

But is it really asymmetical warfare or is it just that the DM is more inclined to give himself the benefit of the doubt and taking care of his own? Asymmetical welfare.

It's one thing to not be following the enemies rules, and another thing to not be following the laws of physics. Asimulational warfare.

Yup.

The Tucker's kobolds thing largely hinges on a key element of play in 1e: Having to make up rules on the fly for a number of combat options. Without codified rules for tripping, blinding, pushing obstacles onto people, etc., the option to do these things, and what exact mechanical effect they have, rests with the DM or adventure designer. The consequence was thus often that such options had a vastly overpowered effect (when employed by the DM) or were simply disallowed (when requested by players). I'm thinking of the Slavelords modules, in which some of the villains had crazy-good abilities like the power to fight in darkness without penalty or command various creatures, etc.

(Tucker's kobolds also hinges on the players either being intentionally rash or having a rather biased DM. Those issues are actually addressed in a letter to the editor in Dragon 130, IIRC.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

Interesting. Do you think this can work against large parties as well? I've got 8 players and I've pretty much given up trying to challenge them using a single high CR creature. The 'best' I can hope for is getting to act first and take out one or more characters in the first round. There's rarely a second round unless it's an ambush situation.

Unfortunately, it's ALSO difficult to challenge them using lots of low CR creatures. Again, if it's an ambush situation with the enemies being able to surround the party and spread out and/or can use cover, it's slightly better, but not by much.

So, it looks like using balanced CRs (or a mix of CRs - IF it is difficult to initially identify the more powerful ones) might work best against large parties. What also seems to work well is using several waves of enemies - but that's no longer really a single encounter.

Does anyone else have experience in / advice on challenges for large parties?

Hmm. My recommendation is to use a mix of foe types: A couple of buffing spellcasters, a couple of extremely tough, high-hp bruisers, and a number of low-level mooks who are given a few rounds of survivability by the buffers through effects like (mass) bear's endurance, etc. That should make for a combat that doesn't inflict serious insta-kills on the party (since the spellcaster enemies' role is to aid allies rather than raining deadly spells on them), while making the battle a bit longer and quite tough.

 

[shilsen]

Interesting. Do you think this can work against large parties as well? I've got 8 players and I've pretty much given up trying to challenge them using a single high CR creature. The 'best' I can hope for is getting to act first and take out one or more characters in the first round. There's rarely a second round unless it's an ambush situation.

I can see why that would be the case. 8 rounds of actions to 1 would be really hard to spin into a large battle, and anything capable of surviving 2-3 rounds of that would likely be killing a PC a round, if not a hit. In theory, something with heavy DR, SR and high hit pts could survive a few rounds, but even that would be iffy.

Unfortunately, it's ALSO difficult to challenge them using lots of low CR creatures. Again, if it's an ambush situation with the enemies being able to surround the party and spread out and/or can use cover, it's slightly better, but not by much.

I'm sure you're right, but I think lots of low CR creatures would be at least somewhat doable. It depends to a significant extent on the PC class breakup in the group (lots of spellcasters make it harder), of course. One simple method I use that often works well is to give the NPCs a flat 75% on hit dice (e.g. 6 on d8s). Admittedly I also let the PCs roll hit dice and automatically get 50% if they roll less than that.

So, it looks like using balanced CRs (or a mix of CRs - IF it is difficult to initially identify the more powerful ones) might work best against large parties. What also seems to work well is using several waves of enemies - but that's no longer really a single encounter.

Does anyone else have experience in / advice on challenges for large parties?

I have a 5 person PC group, so it's not that large, but with an alienist (using UA conjuration specialization rules, so able to summon as a standard action) and two druids, there are sometimes a lot more than 5 on their side. Plus there are a fair number of fights where they have NPC allies. In general, I've found a few things that work well:

* Divide and conquer - Enemies and circumstances that split the PCs up on the battlefield. Enemies that attack from multiple directions (not just horizontally, but vertically as well, requiring 3D thinking), concealment and terrain that hinders one, etc. This not just requires PCs to think tactically and make difficult decisions ("Do I stay here and fight or back up next to an ally or go help another?"), but it also makes it more difficult for them to gang up on an enemy.

* Mixture of enemies - Having a single or couple of tough enemies with a few weaker enemies that are not really dangerous on their own but still too strong to be ignored. Again, this requires the PCs to do a lot of thinking on their feet. If the tougher enemy is strong enough to threaten to bring down a PC in two rounds of attacks (not one, mind you), then there's a significant decision the PCs are always making - can they risk focusing on the big enemy and letting his weaker allies pound the hurt PC into dust, or try to heal/protect the hurt PC, or try to eliminate the multiple weaker allies first (which allows the big guy(s) to keep pounding on them). EDIT: As ruleslawyer posted while I was typing, a mix of classes can do this, esp. with spellcasters who are focused on not damage but weakening/hindering their enemies.

* Weaken, not kill - Having enemies who have abilities that cut down PC effectiveness without killing them. Foes that scare, sicken, nauseate, slow, do ability damage, trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, etc. can keep a fight going a lot longer, and again face the PCs with multiple decisions about whether to press the attack or help allies.

Those are just a few generic ideas off the top of my head. More info about the PC levels and class breakup would make it easier to make specific suggestions, Jhaelen.

 

[Celebrim]

I've got 8 players and I've pretty much given up trying to challenge them using a single high CR creature.

The problem is that for 8 players, a single high CR creature would need to be at least 4-6 CR above character level in order to last more than a round or two. And, at that high of a CR disparity, you are risking a player death on every round because a character can't go toe toe with that.

The 'best' I can hope for is getting to act first and take out one or more characters in the first round. There's rarely a second round unless it's an ambush situation.

Many, I dare say most, monsters in published collections are built primarily with offense in mind. They tend to have alot of punch, but to be comparitively fragile. Combine that with high level spellcasters, and single targets just aren't going to last.

Unfortunately, it's ALSO difficult to challenge them using lots of low CR creatures.

Mainly because the rules for determining EL severely overestimate the threat posed by creatures more than one or two CR below character level - especially for low CR creatures. Low CR creatures generally don't have the ability to overcome player AC, or drop quickly to area attacks.

So, it looks like using balanced CRs (or a mix of CRs - IF it is difficult to initially identify the more powerful ones) might work best against large parties.

Try doing something like 8 opponents with a CR of character level - 2. Give everyone something to do versus an opponent that one on one is thier match. So if you are at level 10 currently, 8 CR 8 opponents, or maybe 10 CR 7 opponents, or 16 CR 6. Or if you are playing at level 6, 8 CR 4 opponents etc.

 

[shilsen]

Mainly because the rules for determining EL severely overestimate the threat posed by creatures more than one or two CR below character level - especially for low CR creatures. Low CR creatures generally don't have the ability to overcome player AC, or drop quickly to area attacks.

I think that's only true if there's a very significant gulf (5+) between the enemy CR and PC level. With a judicious choice of feats and equipment, a melee-focused enemy 4 levels below the PCs will hit them the majority of the time, and be able to soak a couple of rounds of full-attacks from a PC, and especially so when working with allies.

Try doing something like 8 opponents with a CR of character level - 2. Give everyone something to do versus an opponent that one on one is thier match. So if you are at level 10 currently, 8 CR 8 opponents, or maybe 10 CR 7 opponents, or 16 CR 6. Or if you are playing at level 6, 8 CR 4 opponents etc.

That's a good idea. An equal number of opponents with a CR of character level - 2 is a substantial threat, and can easily pull off a TPK if played right. Not that I'm recommending TPKs, mind