DM Tricks to Challenge Tough PCs with Weaker Enemies

Mishihari Lord said:
That's quite a rant, but I have to disagree.

Ok.

I ran some kobolds back in 1E in a similar vein, and totally by the rules, and they posed a dire challenge to high level PCs.

Really.

Mine mainly used wire nets with hooks to make them tough to get away from and flaming oil, but the result was the same as Tucker's.
- emphasis mine.

Color me unsurprised.

Superior tactics, coordination, and preparation go a long way. There were any number of times that if there had been 20 more kobolds I would have had a TPK against level 10+ characters.

A few questions:

1) What rules did you use for these 'wire nets'? Have you ever seen a flexible wire net? Have you ever seen a wire net suitable for entrapping a person in? Have you ever heard of 'wire nets' being used in battle? Did the PC's begin employing wire nets after encountering the kobolds with them?
2) Did you ever roll to see if a slain kobold's vials of flaming oil broke after falling from his hands, or being crushed beneath his body?
3) Did you ever check morale for these kobolds?
4) Are you sure that this was "totally by the rules"?
 

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Celebrim said:
Ok.
A few questions:

1) What rules did you use for these 'wire nets'?
House rules, buddy. SOP back in the day. There weren't any rules for nets, and I wanted nets, so I made some up. Let's see if I can even remember ... Nets ignored armor. On a hit, roll 1d6. 1=head (doesn't do much), 2=weapon arm (no attack or somatic spell until removed), 3= shield arm (no shield or somatic spell until removed), 4,5 = legs (reduced movement, 2 hits to the legs stopped movement), 6= 2 areas. Takes 1d4 rounds to remove. You can roll a strength check to take it off immediately, but if you fail that round doesn't count towards getting it off.

Okay, this one wasn't RAW, but there weren't any rules for this in the RAW. I would hardly count this as "cheating," since it applied the same to everyone.

Celebrim said:
Have you ever seen a flexible wire net?

Actually, yes

Celebrim said:
Have you ever seen a wire net suitable for entrapping a person in?
Yes again.


Celebrim said:
Have you ever heard of 'wire nets' being used in battle?

No, but so what? This is fantasy, and since when is creativity discouraged?

Celebrim said:
Did the PC's begin employing wire nets after encountering the kobolds with them?

Yes. They captured several but had trouble because they weren't proficient. Eventually one PC got a proficiency in them and used them to good effect.

Celebrim said:
2) Did you ever roll to see if a slain kobold's vials of flaming oil broke after falling from his hands, or being crushed beneath his body?

Yes, frequently. That was part of the fun.

Celebrim said:
3) Did you ever check morale for these kobolds?

Of course. They were pretty brave though. I think I rationalized by saying that their LE alignment made them fanatically devoted to the defense of their tribe and territory.

Celebrim said:
4) Are you sure that this was "totally by the rules"?

All I did was add rules for nets, and they were pretty reasonable. Tactics had a lot more to do with the kobolds' success than anything else.

Honestly, I don't see what your problem is. You suggested a bunch of tactics only slightly different than the ones used by Tucker's kobolds that look like they should give a similar chance of success.

I don't really have a problem with some enemies having abilities that PCs don't. You can do it in 3E too. Call it a race-specific feat and you're done.
 
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I think it's of little relevance how closely one sticks to the rules (excepting stupidly large divergences) when creating "interesting encounters".
My rule of thumb is: unless the players cry out "unfair" (or express in any way the same feeling) in a non-whining mode, you're doing things right regarding "laws" (entertainment is another matter).

my 2 cp
 

Slife said:
You mean like Tucker's Kobolds?

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
Oh, yeah. Tucker's Kobolds. I remember them. They were tough and they were fun. We got them by ambushing their foraging parties, sabotaging their food supply, hit and run raids, and killing their oil supplier, (and going in invisible and poisoning their water supply, and losing a level... ahem) ah well. Very tough customers, but what a blast.
 

Celebrim said:
Now, what could a kobold tribe do to protect themselves against a high level party? Certainly not fire arrows, split fire and move, snipe from murder holes or anything like that. That _might_ work in 1st edition for bugbears or even gnolls (with a THAC0 5 lower than kobolds), but it doesn't work for kobolds at all. Arrow slits are practically a waste for kobolds. Murder holes are great, but shooting arrows through them is pointless for kobolds. For kobolds or similar weenies, I know of only one thing that actually works well - drop dangerous things from high places. The meanest and most sensible thing to drop is not flaming oil, but kettles of boiling oil or water. Yes, you lose something in continous damage, but boiling water has the advantage of being cheaply replenished. You won't run out of the ingredients. You get versimilitude as a DM, and the kobolds get a weapon that is unlikely to roast their comrades when they fail thier saving throws. Better yet, they don't have to expose themselves the way flaming oil throwers did. But if you are going to use grenade like weapons, by all means take advantage of ballistics and don't walk out in front of the PC's. Instead, use the lob and pray method. Stand behind something. 90% cover is great, but total cover is better. Push things off ledges. If you only have a 5% chance of hitting, you are doing no worse than firing a crossbow. You don't need clay pots filled with scorpions; rocks will do just fine in the long run. Instead of setting the corridor on fire, put heavy stones in hammocks high above the corridor, and simply release the cradle and let its contents fall. This is far better and more sensible than collapsable tunnels, because its a resettable trap and doesn't wreck your koboldish home. You need to channel and trap the PC's? Why burning fires pushed by brooms? You expose yourself to enemy fire. How about mantlets, so constructed as to dig into the floor when pushed on. How about old fashioned porticli? Unlike barred doors, these are not subject to simple knock spells. Ramps are better than stairs. You can roll things down ramps. Like wheeled mantlets with wooden spikes on the front. Pouring something slippery down a steep ramp the PC's are on is also fun. Another nice feature to construct is a dam. Nothing closes a corridor like opening a sluice and sending a rushing wall of water down it - especially if you are sweeping the characters into a pit. Again, resetable trap and it doesn't take fancy machinery and metal work.
.

This is good stuff, and basically how I run a properly defended lair if the PCs decide to go wipe out all the orcs, etc. Explains why orcs haven't been made extinct centuries ago - they don't all live in dungeons with 10' corridors waiting for PCs to kill them and take their stuff. Deadfalls, boulders down ramps, portcullises, boiling water - simple but effective.
 

The problem with molotof cocktails is that if you are struck while carrying one, there is a good chance you'll drop it, and if dropping it, that it breaks. And if it is actually effective, then you are in trouble. One wonders how often Tucker rolled to see if a molotoff throwing kobold who was killed, struck by a fear spell or sleep or anything else dropped his deadly load and roasted his nearby companions as well. I'd guess zero times.

From what I remember, there is no rules in any edition for this. Isn't this house ruling as well?
 

The only thing in the book I can think of is certain conditions state characters drop held items. I think Panicked is one. If Unconscious isn't, it probably should be. But its kind of a moot point since we're trying to interpret 1e encounters with 3.5 rules. My fond rememberences of the early days of gaming (for me, which was about 10 years after the actual early days of gaming) was it was a very by-the-seat-of-your-pants exercise.
 

Mishihari Lord said:
House rules, buddy. SOP back in the day. There weren't any rules for nets, and I wanted nets, so I made some up.

Sure. I've no problem with house rules. But, my point is simply that you are an example of what I'm talking about. These particular house rules had a purpose. You created a special item, a 'wire net', that had the properties you needed in order to make your kobolds competitive against the PCs. It wasn't like throwing a chain link fence or a fishing basket at someone. It was effective - actually I would say highly effective. It gave you a touch attack. It was difficult to evade and it stole actions from the target.

Okay, this one wasn't RAW, but there weren't any rules for this in the RAW. I would hardly count this as "cheating," since it applied the same to everyone.

It sounds like a net would be almost an autokill employed against a BBEG. Touch attack to 'paralyze' an opponent for 1d4 rounds no save? Yeah, I'll do that. I'd want a whole bag of holding full of such things.

No, but so what? This is fantasy, and since when is creativity discouraged?

Creativity has nothing to do with it. Pushing campfires around with broomsticks as a weapon is creative. But it is creativity applied toward the purpose of creating special rules designed to even things up between high level opponents and weak ones and darn any sort of common sense that might get in the way of that. I have no doubt that Tucker was a creative DM who created a memorable campaign. That is a given. I'm not even saying he was a bad DM. I'm saying that it is very easy to fall into the trap of thinking that this is cunning and clever, when all it really is is a special application of DM fiat.

Yes, frequently. That was part of the fun.

Good. I commend you. I can't imagine how the little suckers managed to threaten a high level party, since a simple fear spell would probably wipe out not only every kobold in the area of effect, but probably a good many hiding behind things and corners, and cloudkill would take out large swaths of a lair, and things like sleep and magic missile are autokills against whole kobold teams. But then again, touch attacks to paralyze a PC for 1d4 rounds with no save. Right.

One of the things that bothers me about all this 'flaming oil = tactics' and 'using nets = tactics' is that well, it isn't tactics. It's technology. It might as well be magic spells. The other thing that bothers me is that flaming oil is far more effective employed against kobolds than it is employed against PC's.

Of course.

Good.

They were pretty brave though. I think I rationalized by saying that their LE alignment made them fanatically devoted to the defense of their tribe and territory.

Of course.

Honestly, I don't see what your problem is. You suggested a bunch of tactics only slightly different than the ones used by Tucker's kobolds that look like they should give a similar chance of success.

There are several major differences that you aren't seeing. For example, my suggestions don't require the kobold tribe to have any more resources than is typical for kobolds. They don't need light crossbows. They don't need flaming oil - a single bottle of which by the rules would be a significant portion of the treasure of an entire tribe. They don't need any special expensive weapons or armor or equipment or things that they could not reasonably manufacture themselves. I also don't need any special rules other than those typically used for things like traps in published scenarios. No nets. No lassos. And incidently, if you want to bend the limitations of the rules in your favor, a horde of lasso wielding kobolds would have done the trick pretty well too. But if I had done that, I couldn't have really pretended that I was doing anything but bending the limitations in the rules, because in the real world, armies don't employ lassos as uber-weapons.

Now, I could put in a kobold tribe that manufactured plate mail and its own flaming oil, and that might be interesting. They could have an iron and coal mine, and refining flaming oil from nearby tar pits, and be generally technologically sophisticated. They could have a very profitable trade system and have an obvious means of significant economic support. But giving them these extra resources is a far different thing than making them clever, cunning, or 'mean'. It is a far different thing from saying that these are ordinary kobolds. I might as well have given them extra hit dice or superior attributes or some other thing, because mechanically its going to amount to the same thing. I could also equip them with Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifles, and employ far more realistic rules than anything that involved 'wire nets', but hopefully you can see that this isn't the same thing as tactics or cunning either.

The other thing is that as I pointed out, kobolds need a 20 to hit AC 1. In my experience, AC 1 is not that hard to come by for high level parties. Yet, our description of Tucker's kobolds makes a big deal about ordinary attacks from kobolds. Why, when a 10th level fighter ought to be able to absorb 300 or so attacks even without healing? Since when should that worry a high level party. My suspicion is that like your nets, Tucker was playing fast and loose with AC. Otherwise, kobold attacks are less effective than bee stings against most high level parties. There should be a couple hundred dead kobolds before such attacks would even be worrying us otherwise, unless those 'flaming crossbow bolts' had some touch attack component, or unless the kobolds were getting a huge bonus to hit from 'narrow corridor bonus' or like Skip's goblins in AotDL, had special rules for mass volley fire that ignored AC.
 

Actually, back in the day, a 20 was a crit. There was a rule that if the monster needed a 20 to hit, the 20 wasn't a crit, but I can't recall a GM ever actually enforcing that rule. (And in 1e and even 2e, the line between rule, optional rule, alternate rule, and house rule was frequently blurred.) So when a bunch of little guys were firing blindly at the high level pcs, they didn't hit a lot, but when they did it hurt. (Depending on the crit table used, it could get downright nasty. In one 1e game we used a crit/fumble table from Dragon magazine, and everybody lost a body part. The paladin lost a leg, the monk lost a hand, I lost a chest. Somebody lost a head. Good times.)

I agree with Cele that GM's can frequently fall into the trap of thinking they're being clever when they're actually just giving themselves the benefit of the fiat. (Its hard to say which is more annoying, a GM who is doing it to be jerk, or one who doesn't realize he's doing anything wrong at all.) Its the GM's job to set the difficulty for whatever tricks people decide to pull, and its natural there's a little self-favortism there. He has to approve his own plan, which he thought up and so probably thinks is possible.
 


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