DM vs. Player

[Masada]

Yeah, I don't think it is out of the DM's bounds to say "everyone knows a sword stroke to the throat is fatal". But of course any crazed character could ignore that. The victim dies... the villian dies... and then one player has to explain to the other player why he killed his character off. Another way to say this is "out of character"... "John, Bob's character will die if you take this action. Roleplay how you will. Okay, what do you do?"

But... this is one of those situations where I think the DM needs to have a plan about what to do with character death. This takes some of the pressure off the DM who may be reluctant to kill off a character justly. At least it was the "boss" so the character could die a hero's death in combat rather than the ignoble failed save versus traps.

 

[Hussar]

I don't think the OP did anything wrong here. He described the situation, with enough detail that the players should have a pretty good idea of what the consequences of their actions will be. That the player insists on being a bit of an asshat should probably get him pelted with dice.

Out of curiousity, how did the Dwarf player react to all of this? I think if I was playing the dwarf, I'd be pretty pissed.

 

[Asmor]

In general, it's the DM's call.

In this case, it's the player's call. You can certainly say, "your character would probably expect this to be a killing blow," but ultimately it's up the player to do as he pleases.

 

[roguerouge]

DM: "So, roll a die for your perception/heal/spot check...." Sometimes players will only listen if they roll a die first.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Who should win?

Unless the DM has some ulterior motive for setting some player up, it should be the DM. If they aren’t winning, then they are a failure.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Yeah, I don't think it is out of the DM's bounds to say "everyone knows a sword stroke to the throat is fatal". But of course any crazed character could ignore that. The victim dies... the villian dies... and then one player has to explain to the other player why he killed his character off. Another way to say this is "out of character"... "John, Bob's character will die if you take this action. Roleplay how you will. Okay, what do you do?"

But... this is one of those situations where I think the DM needs to have a plan about what to do with character death. This takes some of the pressure off the DM who may be reluctant to kill off a character justly. At least it was the "boss" so the character could die a hero's death in combat rather than the ignoble failed save versus traps.

Pretty much my thought as well. If I was playing the dwarf I would blame my death on the other player, not the DM.

 

[billd91]

The problem occurs when one of the players says that his character doesn't think a sword to the throat is a big deal and that he reckons the dwarf will survive it so he wanted to attack. I told him that his character most definitely knows that the sword thrust will kill the dwarf outright so by his action, he'll essentially be killing the dwarf. He then argued that I can't tell him what his character thinks or knows, and that he's "roleplaying" that his character thinks the dwarf would survive.

So, which one is it?

Here's one problem. Whether or not the PCs come up with a way to bring the enemy down or get her to back off without the dwarf dying, it's still you who is killing the dwarf. There's nothing the PC does that will kill that dwarf without you deciding that your NPC will do the killing.
So, in the one place, I think the attitude about who is ultimately responsible is out of place. Some people, in real life or in games, will call you or any other hostage-taker on that.
In the other place, you can tell them what they can understand about a situation, but you can't make them agree with the next course of action or what to do with that information. Again, there are people who find it completely reasonable to not negotiate with hostage takers, and in a world where rising from the dead is a ritual (and a fair amount of money) away, you'd expect that to be even more common.

 

[Greg K]

In this instance, I am supporting the DM. There appears to be nothing about playing in "character' as their is nothing to indicate the character would not have the experience or common sense to realize that the sword would kill the dwarf- especially, after the DM told the player that his character would know how lethal the sword was to the dwarf.

Under the circumstances, I would tell the offending player to pack his books and leave. My first reaction was to tell the player that his charcter's intellegence and wisdom are now 3 and to play his character that way from now on. However, as the dwarf was a PC combined with the player's "justification", I think the player was being an ass.

Strike that. After, reading that the whole group's attitude was the dwarf be damned, I'd pack my books and tell the players to find a new DM. The session and the campaign are over (assuming that group had no reason to hate the dwarf PC to the point that they would let him die).

 

[Asmor]

In this instance, I am supporting the DM. There appears to be nothing about playing in "character' as their is nothing to indicate the character would not have the experience or common sense to realize that the sword would kill the dwarf- especially, after the DM told the player that his character would know how lethal the sword was to the dwarf.

Under the circumstances, I would tell the offending player to pack his books and leave. My first reaction was to tell the player that his charcter's intellegence and wisdom are now 3 and to play his character that way from now on. However, as the dwarf was a PC combined with the player's "justification", I think the player was being an ass.

Strike that. After, reading that the whole group's attitude was the dwarf be damned, I'd pack my books and tell the players to find a new DM. The session and the campaign are over (assuming that group had no reason to hate the dwarf PC to the point that they would let him die).

Wow, dude. You must either be really lonely from having forsaken all other gamers around you, or you must be really happy for having the only perfect group on Earth.

Either way, I don't think such a harsh reaction is justified.

 

[S'mon]

The DM tells the player what the PC perceives. If the player wishes their PC to be a moron I guess they have that right, though.

Edit: I guess the PC is "creating their own reality" based on ignoring obvious facts. This is something real people do do.