DM wants to abandon RttToEE...(spoilers) - long

[Dark Dragon]

The RttToEE session yesterday was the last straw that broke the camel's back, it seems...

The campaign developed into a quite frustrating killing adventure despite the good background (ok, that's IMHO, the other players may have different opinions), but after an open discussion with the DM, I hoped it would become again an exciting adventure as it was until the long frustrating battles in the CRM started (after the destruction of altar chamber of the Earth Temple; btw: we turned LEFT at the main gate, which seems to be a bad choice...).

After the party was soundly defeated by the Fire Temple (one PC captured, the rest escaped barely with their lifes), we developed a rescue mission for the next day to get our cleric back (it was a simple plan: scrying and teleporting while being invisible). It worked, but we found the cleric being partially transformed into some sort of half demon / half golem with an evil familiar in his abdomen (that remembered me of that rebel leader in Total Recall) and stripped of all possions. It seems that the cleric has still control of his body and was glad to see his friends. So we tried to get back home, but the player of the wizard had bad luck with the rolls to overcome a teleport resistance in the area. So we were trapped and forced to try our way out by foot. Still invisible, we followed the empty corridors. Only one single door we opened...but it was the door the private rooms of the high priest of the Outer Fane (we assumed that. It's the guy with the spiny armor and a rod with snakes...).

Our cleric talked to him and wanted to know what happened to his body. After some discussion, combat broke out after the guards and a monk / assassin rushed to the high priest's side. Although the party was absolutely not prepared for combat with a very powerful cleric (it was a rescue mission, after all), we had luck on our side: The priest was mazed and the fighters and the monk were felled quickly by spells and some heavy crits from the paladin's sword. Then the priest returned and a Forbiddance denied melee combat...He killed the wizard with a Destruction (the player rolled a 1 for the save). The druid and the paladin resisted a Disintegrate and an Implosion...To make an already long story short: the druid (in dire tiger form) was able to attack the priest at last and delivered three crits and grappling the foe...It didn't help: the priest escaped with a Word of Recall.

There it ended.

The DM is frustrated to have killed a PC again (5th kill in a few sessions) and frustrated about the insta-killing spells in D&D...(perhaps also about some rules, but who's not )

The players are frustrated about constant failure of their PCs despite good planning and preparations and trying to get informations about the temples. Additionally, most of the character's friends were killed and the little castle (the HQ) with a small village around it was obliterated by a demon in the temple's service (I think it's a logical consequence and sometimes sh*t happens, but some players don't like the destruction of everything the party has achieved...).

It seems that our DM is serious about abandoning the adventure, or in other words: the main temple's plans are foiled by powerful persons (the party has told some high priests and druids about the temple and that the group probably wouldn't be able to solve the problem).

The next DM in charge is me (each adventure has another DM).
I have a whole lot of ideas for adventures, but none is fleshed out now. I don't want to play a campaign from the store, that's sure (I have already some adventures, but I don't like them much, most of them are meat grinders..Tomb of Horrors and the like).

The problem is to get some fun back to game. The group is at level 16, but it isn't sure if the players still want to play their characters (well, I'd like to play my druid still for while and most of my plots are for high-level PCs).

Any ideas for a good changeover, should RttToEE really be at an end?

Any ideas for the DM to go on?


Thanks for help!

The Dark Dragon (sometimes an evil DM, but not as evil as Pooka... )

 

[hong]

The problem is to get some fun back to game. The group is at level 16, but it isn't sure if the players still want to play their characters (well, I'd like to play my druid still for while and most of my plots are for high-level PCs).

You guys are _16th level_ in a module designed for 4th-12th level characters? How long have you been going? No wonder people are getting tired of it.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

if you're not having fun, it's not worth doing.

two words - dimensional anchor

 

[Dark Dragon]

Re: Re: DM wants to abandon RttToEE...(spoilers) - long

Originally posted by hong


You guys are _16th level_ in a module designed for 4th-12th level characters? How long have you been going? No wonder people are getting tired of it.

The DM adapted it, but often he went too far. The Fire Temple threw 6 clerics of at least level 11, 6 fighters of about level 10, 1 wizard level 15, 1 high priest level 15 and lots of fire elementals at the group - at once. I didn't calculated the ECL, but it was too high for 4 level 15 PCs (at that time level 15). After four rounds, we managed to escape...

The attack on the Water Temple was an ECL of about 22...That only one PC died and we won that battle seems to be a miracle.

We're playing the module for about one and a half year now and it was easy only on very rare occasions.

two words - dimensional anchor

We tried that, but our cleric missed with the attack. If he would have hit, he had to overcome SR (the high priest had cast Spell Resistance).

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Well it boosting RttToEE with MORE encounters can really kill the adventure fast.

I've been running a tight schedule RttToEE campaign since february (we have to finish it by late June). The adventure was pretty balanced between mystery, intrigue and fighting until the CRM (though there's been some very nice interaction - the PCs working for the Water Temple, one infiltrating the Fire Temple for several sessions and even a bit of mindwars with the Outer Fane). I use boosted encounters that can be found on a RttToEE fansite because my players were hard to challenge by the CRM as written - the character's were just tough and I had to adjust.

Anyway, there's more than enough killing in this adventure and I'm kicking myself for having included to many random encounters at the beginning of the adventure (the party consists of 5 11th level characters and only the Fire Temple remains in the CRM) since it has since taken away valuable time and jaded some players a bit with endless fights. Scaling the encounters in the CRM to be more challenging for higher level characters is no problem - but adding more encounters (or more monsters to each encounter) is quite likely pushing the envelope of the adventure for all players (even hardened hack'n'slashers I suspect).

I'm looking forward for the showdown with the Outer Fane, though, as the PCs have had quite a lot of foreboding about the power of the Fane and the ruthlessness of its High Priest. It should bring a breath of fresh air into the module again (just as the CRM were initially when the players had only experienced the limited wonders of Nulb, the Moathouse, Rastor and the ToEE).

-Zarrock

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Man, what a meat grinder. I sympathize with your DM, as I eventually got fed up with the temple and chucked it. My party eventually got bored of the near constant fighting and charcter deaths and it was pretty unanimous to scrap the whole thing. I also made the mistake of trying to tinker with the power levels of the temple to match my PCs and it just became too much work for very little pay off.

The adventure just bogs down in the middle and makes it very difficult for a party to rest and recover spells and such. I know it is a lot of people's favorite but I think there are some very big design flawes that in some ways make it unplayable for certain groups. If your party likes to stay in one place and have near constant battles then its great, but if they want more roleplaying and less hack and slash they will eventually grow bored with the whole thing, as my group did.

My advice is to move on to something more compatable with your group before your DM finally loses it and kills the lot of you.

Of course YMMV, IMHO and all that.

Dirge

 

[Artimoff]

My god! That sounds like loads of fun. What's the complaint? If you don't want to have characters die don't adventure. That's the fun of D&D, seeing how well you can stratigize against the DM/Module. I don't know how many times we've effed up a good plan.

 

[blakwind]

Bummer.

I'm running a RttToEE campaign that has entered its second year. I'll be up front about my biases -- it's my favourite 3E adventure, bar none.

However, it's not a "happy happy joy joy" adventure. The tone throughout is very dark. Many groups lose lots of characters. The PCs face a constant uphill struggle, and that's not for everyone. If what you're doing isn't working for you, then its time to try something different.

It does seem to me that your DM has taken an odd approach to RttToEE. That's not criticism -- there are infinite ways to play this product. However, most DMs I know cut content rather than add more. The adventure is huge because it doesn't railroad you down a particular path. That doesn't mean you need to take every door, fight every monster, and get every treasure.

Does your DM hang out at Monte Cook's RttToEE discussion forum at MonteCook.com? Folks there would be happy to discus his issues. Note that the forum is for DMs only -- players please stay away!

 

[Dark Dragon]

Originally posted by Artimoff
My god! That sounds like loads of fun. What's the complaint? If you don't want to have characters die don't adventure. That's the fun of D&D, seeing how well you can stratigize against the DM/Module. I don't know how many times we've effed up a good plan.

That's one of the problems: Even the best strategies resulted in defeat and/or more problems. Dead characters are a part of D&D and each player in the group knows that. But if the PCs keep dying despite best efforts and good role-playing, fun dies, too.

Originally posted by blakwind
However, it's not a "happy happy joy joy" adventure. The tone throughout is very dark. Many groups lose lots of characters. The PCs face a constant uphill struggle, and that's not for everyone. If what you're doing isn't working for you, then its time to try something different.

That it wouldn't be a joyful story was clear after a few sessions, and increasing difficulty was also expected. And it was an exciting adventure and the dark tone was developed well by our DM. But if things are getting too tough and losses are too high, a reasonable party (as is ours, IMO) should forward the problem to people who can handle it (we are thinking about doing that).

I think RttToEE has lots of ideas to fit it into any campaign, but if you like to play your PC (and are perhaps a bit attached to it), it's perhaps not the right module (depends on the DM, of course).

Does your DM hang out at Monte Cook's RttToEE discussion forum at MonteCook.com? Folks there would be happy to discus his issues. Note that the forum is for DMs only -- players please stay away!

Yes, he knows that and perhaps he discussed the problem there before he offered to abandon the module.
I don't know.

 

[Goobermunch]

What does CRM mean? Abbreviations are only fun if they're shared.

--G