DMG Excerpt: Customizing Monsters

el-remmen said:
No, I do understand. I just think the answer should be, want it to be "balanced"? (gee, I hate that term) Then don't give it that item. Give it something weaker or nothing at all.

The reason they don't do that is because the monster may have, in its treasure, a +5 set of chain mail and a +4 greatsword. If the monster has this treasure, he should be using it. HOWEVER, those bonuses will unbalance the monster's stats beyond where they should be. This is one of the reasons why previous editions had a bit of craziness at higher levels, with one member of your party hitting an enemy on a 13 or higher, and another only on an 18 or higher, and everyone else needing a 20. And so on.

Basically, the monster should be using the treasure he has. He SHOULDN'T, though, receive the full benefits of that treasure to maintain game balance (thankfully, one of their primary focuses, above and beyond simulationist concerns).

The PCs don't know what that the monster lost some of his base attack bonus when he got that magical weapon. But the encounter will run smoother and they can find their loot when it's over.

Better to adjust the monsters stats a bit, "behind the curtain", so that appropriate level magic items can be found, then to adjust things "in the open" by limiting magic items to small bonuses and not appropriate ones.
 

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Derren said:
And I would like you to explain how magic items loosing their power when hold by strong NPCs is logical in the conceit of 4E.

That's the thing. The NPC DOESN'T loose power when holding a high level magical item. The actual numbers used in play are modified to keep things in a reasonable range. No one, absolutely no one, other than the DM, knows that the NPC is not benefiting completely from a particular item. It's all happening under the hood, and off stage, so to speak.

It keeps the numbers you need to roll, and the numbers your players have to roll, within a target range. Unless you tell them, or let them look at your monster notes, they have no way of knowing how much benefit the monster is getting from a particular item.

Frankly, I much prefer solutions that happen behind the scenes like this. It may feel funny when you're setting up your encounter, but the PCs won't know the difference, other than the encounter was properly balanced.
 

I like posting as I read a thread this long because it piles my posts all at the end like I'm a jerk talking to myself. Isn't that great? ;)

Okay, one more. I notice a lot of people arguing over possible explanations for what the article means when it talks about the magic item threshold and then gives the example of the ogres with +3 greatswords.

Reading the article again, I don't think there's anything wrong or mistyped with it. I wondered what was going on when I saw the discussion but didn't remember anything that caught my eye last night when I first read it. So, here's what I read and what I understood it all to mean:

Monsters are designed to have certain AC, to-hit, and damage bonuses based upon their level and role (type). This math, which the PCs don't usually witness directly but only after being filtered through a DM's d20 roll and result/action arbitration, has been very carefully tweaked to fall into a certain range. Remember, they're actively trying to maintain that "sweet spot".

Because of the above, monsters do not benefit from magical items (in the bonus department) that are equal to or less than the magical threshold for their level. The PC don't know this, but it minimizes the impact the items will have on the math for any given monster level.

The article then goes on to give an example:
. For example, those ogre savages in plate armor and wielding +3 greatswords have AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls three points higher than normal. That’s pretty close to what a monster three levels higher would have (+3 to all defenses, +3 to attack rolls, and +1 damage), so you might as well make those ogre savages into 11th-level monsters and give them the extra hit points to go along with their other benefits.

Now, this seems like a misprint because the article says the monsters have bonuses +3 higher than normal, contrary to their own threshold table. That's not a misprint, though. They are merely saying that if you want those ogres to HAVE +3 bonuses to AC, attack, and damage rolls than don't give them the swords, raise them to 11th level instead. Their magic threshold table was never factored in to that example. It's just an example to show that, instead of adding magical items to achieve a certain bonus for your monster, just raise its level instead so that he can get the other benefits that go along with that ... and the PCs can get the experience they deserve from facing the more difficult encounter. Their table never entered the picture, so the numbers aren't wrong.

In other words, consider making monsters tougher by adding a few levels instead of adding a few magic items.

Oh, and if you decide to give those ogres the +3 greatswords anyway then the bonuses would be +2 IF you use the magical item threshold table.
 
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AZRogue, there is an alternate explaination:
Original Ogres use a unknown armor. The new armor you gave the (plate mail) grants it an effecive 3 points higher bonus. (The text mentions no magical bonus for the armor)
They use a (Great?)Club as weapon (+1 profieincy bonus), but switch to Greatsword +3 (+2 proficiency bonus, +3 bonus to attacks, -1 for magical item threshold => net effect +3 compared to clubs). The damage is 3 points higher for +3 enhancement, -1 threshold, +1 two-handed.
So, they get +3 to attacks and AC, and +3 to damage from their equipment selection.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
AZRogue, there is an alternate explaination:
Original Ogres use a unknown armor. The new armor you gave the (plate mail) grants it an effecive 3 points higher bonus. (The text mentions no magical bonus for the armor)
They use a (Great?)Club as weapon (+1 profieincy bonus), but switch to Greatsword +3 (+2 proficiency bonus, +3 bonus to attacks, -1 for magical item threshold => net effect +3 compared to clubs). The damage is 3 points higher for +3 enhancement, -1 threshold, +1 two-handed.
So, they get +3 to attacks and AC, and +3 to damage from their equipment selection.

You also subtract the treshold from damage IIRC, so i assume one point of the damage come from the better average damage of a great sword compared to a club. Plate mail is 2 points better than the chain mail which is one point higher than the natural armor + hide. I bet it makes sense when we see the equipment list.

Still i am worried about the wording of the armor change article. Also i get the imression natral armor should stack with light amor (like cloth AC 0, leather AC 1 or hide AC 2), which it obviously does in the ogres case. So it would be convenient if that Natural Armor was mentioned in the monsters entry (i considered that one of the biggest imrovements in MM 3.5).
 

1. Ogre's armour

Did we forget to add in the +4 unstated bonus the ogre gets from just being an 8th level creature. A poster on the WOTC board mentions that adding that in seems to make all the numbers work out for the ogre's armour class.

Would that also explain the attack bonus for the ogre as well?

Again, my reading of this is that if in battle, a creature picks up a random weapon, then you use the standard weapon bonus but if for some reason you want a creature to have a SPECIFIC set of armour/defenses/weapons available for the PCs to loot, heres what you need to do to make the encounter balanced.

From the PC side of the table, you wouldn't know the difference between random Joe monster and cutomized Joe Monster with magic weapon. The goal seems to be that in 4E to divorce treasure directly from the critter unless the DM specifically wants it.
 

Derren said:
Read again what I wrote, not the NPC looses power but the magical weapon.


And what you wrote is still wrong. Read again what AZRogue wrote. It is behind the scenes. It keeps things balanced and makes for a better game.
 

ainatan said:
Chris Simms mentioned in a post right here on EnWorld that it would be easier to just tweak with the monsters instead of PCs in order to come up with a low magic items game.


I guess we'll see. Strikes me as easier to just give the PCs a little boost rather than adjust every encounter, but I haven't seen the rules yet.
 

Ingolf said:
I guess we'll see. Strikes me as easier to just give the PCs a little boost rather than adjust every encounter, but I haven't seen the rules yet.
Ditto. I fail to see how "You may treat each weapon/implement/holy symbol you pick up as though it had the same + as is your due at this level" is harder than "OMG MATH ON EVERY MONSTER".

So I know which way I'm going -- though I'm glad it's not core, since I'm given to understand that most D&D players enjoy the phat lewts. :)
 

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