DMG to include a "starter town".

[The Little Raven]

So the 'everything you need to play in three books' premise isn't actually true?

Well, from his arguments and point of view, "everything you need to play in three books if you have previous experience as a DM," seems to be what he wants. He doesn't seem to understand that forcing new DMs to buy more than experienced ones will be a roadblock to new DMs.

I expect at least a sample scenario to be included in my $90 RPG purchase, thanks.

Even if it doesn't have a scenario, I expect a Dungeon Master's Guide (defined as "Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction") that has a section on generating towns to provide an example which can be used as-is.

 

[gizmo33]

So the 'everything you need to play in three books' premise isn't actually true?

Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean any possible thing you say supports your position. In this case, a logical thing to consider as you make this argument is whether or not an example town is something you need in order to play DnD. I really shouldn't have had to say this. You should care enough about your argument to think of this stuff on your own.

I'm sorry you guys have been unable to play DnD in any of it's previous editions and hopefully now that there will be a sample town in the DMG you can start playing so that maybe by 5th edition people will know the difference between the DMG and beginner basic boxed set.

I expect at least a sample scenario to be included in my $90 RPG purchase, thanks.

So a town is a scenario? I didn't realize that many people were playing evil characters. Or maybe the scenario is "hey, let's go talk to the candlemaker for an hour". Sounds exciting. In any case, you could learn to DM and get an entire scenario plus dice for far less than $90 back in the basic days.

It's really strange to me that you all are suggesting that there's such a demand for a town scenario when previously WotC talked like it could barely give away adventures. One of the justifications for the d20 license was that scenarios just weren't profitable. Now you're suggesting that they be included in core rules - so that what? Other people are forced to buy them?

It's a matter or priorities. I'd rather them print a 12 page town scenario than leave those pages blank. I'd rather them print the scenario than a 12 page description of James Wyatt's miniatures collection. However, I'm (perhaps foolishly) optimistic in thinking that if WotC tried they could think of something more interesting to do with 12 pages for folks that have spent more than $20 on RPG stuff and perhaps have one or a dozen town scenarios already.

In any case, you're not going to get a town scenario for free, which is implicit in your reasoning it seems.

 

[pogre]

High School students find the size of the rules intimidating. They think you have to know all the rules to start playing. Think about most other games, that idea makes sense from the students' perspective.

A step-by-step video with play examples and DM suggestions on the WOTC site might be part of a solution.

The key is to get new folks into the fun ASAP. Three huge books screams work to teenagers.

I don't think new folks are going to be worried about a town. Most newer high school groups I have observed pretty much hand wave the whole town thing.

I don't know if WOTC plans an entire beginning adventure in the DMG, but it would be more helpful for newbies.

I personally don't mind the idea of a town in the DMG. If it's decent it might save me some work.

 

[gizmo33]

Well, from his arguments and point of view, "everything you need to play in three books if you have previous experience as a DM," seems to be what he wants. He doesn't seem to understand that forcing new DMs to buy more than experienced ones will be a roadblock to new DMs.

I've said over and over again that the concept of a basic boxed set could contain everything that a beginning DM needs to play the game and yet somehow you're more of an expert on what I understand than what I say? Wouldn't you have to follow the one in order to know something about the other?

Even if it doesn't have a scenario, I expect a Dungeon Master's Guide (defined as "Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction") that has a section on generating towns to provide an example which can be used as-is.

The sentence "section on generating towns to provide an example" doesn't make any sense to me based on grammar alone. I have no problem with a section on generating towns - lists of shop types, population statistics, etc. What I don't want to see is a bunch of encounter location descriptions that are either divorced completely from a setting, or require you to own a setting (like Greyhawk) in order to make any sense out of. Think about it - how useful would Hommlet be without a Moathouse or the ToEE? How much sense would it make to a new DM who had never seen those products? And how interesting could a town description really be that's completely seperated from any information on the surrounding campaign world? Does this town include that info too? (page...count...increasing...)

 

[The Ubbergeek]

At the very least indeed, it should be a free web enhancement.

 

[gizmo33]

Here you go:

1. Carpenter
2. Blacksmith
3. Farmer
4. Poor Farmer
5. Well
6. Common Green
7. Witch's Hovel
8. Gnome Farmer
9. Farmer
10. Farmer
11. Deserted House
12. Ancient Tower Ruins
13. Leather Worker
14. Trading Post
15-30. Farmer

There, now draw some boxes on a piece of graph paper and number them 1-30.

The farmer at area 3 is really a half-orc and tries to hide it. The witch is lawful good. The deserted house is a lair for some zombies who are trapped in the dirt cellar and belonged to the necromancer who lived at 12 before his tower was mysteriously destroyed. The blacksmith has a funny laugh. The carpenter has one eye. And the gnome used to be a miner before he was wrongly accused of causing a cave-in and was exiled from his clan.

Whew. Now maybe new DMs can start playing.

 

[La Bete]

stuff.

Whoah there fella - want to dial back the snark a few notches?

Personally I think the idea is great - even as an experienced DM, there are times when I'm winging it, and a quick look at a sample town provides some mental structure to make some more stuff up...

And for new DMs, it's not so much that a town in the DMG will make them buy the book, it's more that it'll help them do it competently.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Here you go:

1. Carpenter
2. Blacksmith
3. Farmer
4. Poor Farmer
5. Well
6. Common Green
7. Witch's Hovel
8. Gnome Farmer
9. Farmer
10. Farmer
11. Deserted House
12. Ancient Tower Ruins
13. Leather Worker
14. Trading Post
15-30. Farmer

There, now draw some boxes on a piece of graph paper and number them 1-30.

The farmer at area 3 is really a half-orc and tries to hide it. The witch is lawful good. The deserted house is a lair for some zombies who are trapped in the dirt cellar and belonged to the necromancer who lived at 12 before his tower was mysteriously destroyed. The blacksmith has a funny laugh. The carpenter has one eye. And the gnome used to be a miner before he was wrongly accused of causing a cave-in and was exiled from his clan.

Whew. Now maybe new DMs can start playing.

Although I realize you're being a bit sardonic here, I have to admit that I found your flavor text intriguing. Well done!

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

And for the life of me, I can't fathom why people don't want examples of towns or dungeons in a book called The Dungeon Master's Guide. The original 1e DMG had an example dungeon (unfinished) and an example play session (unfinished). It also had a list of all MM monsters in list form that was a colossal waste of space that would've been far better spent fleshing out both examples. Never mind all this rubbish about "hand holding." Give me an example of a town that'll inspire me. That sounds like 10 to 20 (or more!) pages well spent.

Waste of space? Hardly!

That's where the XP values for the monsters are kept.

My perception is that the Monster Manual is used for planning the dungeon, while the DMG is actually at the table and ready for reference or quick copying into notes.

 

[The Little Raven]

I've said over and over again that the concept of a basic boxed set could contain everything that a beginning DM needs to play the game and yet somehow you're more of an expert on what I understand than what I say? Wouldn't you have to follow the one in order to know something about the other?

You keep saying that new DMs should have to buy another product. A Basic set, or a module, or a new DM book, or whatever.

"Maybe such a guide could guide you to a store where you could buy a module."

The more things you make someone buy in order to learn something, the less likely you are to get new people to do it.

The sentence "section on generating towns to provide an example" doesn't make any sense to me based on grammar alone.

So, you have trouble making sense of "I expect a book that has a section on generating towns to provide an example which can be used, as-is." because of what? I was lacking that comma before as-is in the original post?

What I don't want to see is a bunch of encounter location descriptions that are either divorced completely from a setting, or require you to own a setting (like Greyhawk) in order to make any sense out of.

Yeah, you've made it clear you don't want a generic example town that can be dropped into any setting or campaign to help a new DM because you don't need that sort of thing. We get it.

Think about it - how useful would Hommlet be without a Moathouse or the ToEE?

Extremely. It's got people who sell weapons, armor, adventuring supplies. It's got important NPCs that might have missions for the players (mayor, etc). It's got a tavern for that traditional "You all start in a tavern..." hook. It's got everything the players need when then go to and fro during their adventures.

Instead of having to come up with a dungeon AND a nearby town, only the dungeon needs to be made, because the town is covered. That reduces a new DM's workload.

How much sense would it make to a new DM who had never seen those products?

Uh, plenty, since it won't be built around being in a module. It will be built around being a generic example town that just happens to be an iconic one, a springboard for any adventure that needs a small town, but doesn't provide one.

And how interesting could a town description really be that's completely seperated from any information on the surrounding campaign world?

Pretty interesting, given some of the most interesting adventures from the early days of D&D started small (a town and surrounding area) and grew into bigger things with later products. If you can't perceive of anyone having the ability to make a single town interesting without having to describe the entire campaign world to you, that's just a personal limitation.