DMG to include a "starter town".

[BryonD]

Ah, it's anecdote time.

We'll have real data in a year. You show me the new DMs.

All right. Out of two separate gaming groups with a combined rotating population of about 15, I know of at least two who would like to DM, and/or have DMed other games, but who are intimidated about DMing D&D, and have chosen not to do so because it's too difficult. I know of at least two others who have DMed D&D once, and chosen not to do so again, also because of complexity issues.

Will the inclusion of a sample town make a difference to them by itself? No, probably not. But if, as you suggest, it's one element of a push to make the DM's life easier? Then yes, it may very well make a difference.

And sight unseen I'd readily wager that exactly zero of them will become 4E DMs.
As I specifically said, it is quite common for "players" to DM on occasion. That doesn't mean they are going to be "DMs".

You've got 8 months. Offer one of them Salt Marsh this week. Get them up and running. If you are right then they will be 3X DMs long before 4E hits the shelves.

 

[Wormwood]

I've been DMing for over 20 years, and I would *totally* appreciate a nice starter town in the DMG.

I have five players and very little time---please hold my hand.

 

[Monkey Boy]

I think the DMG should be aimed at new DM's. Established DM's already know how to DM a game. They already know what a Dungeons and Dragons game should be like. They don't need a guide to tell them how to DM. I DMed for years without the 3.5 DMG and it went fine.

If I really needed a rule that was exclusively in the DMG, and there weren't many, I used the SRD.

DMG = Guide for DM's. If you've been DMing for decades you don't need it. Your only buying it for the purpose of collecting or reading for fun. Both of which are valid reasons by the way.

 

[BryonD]

Wow, you think I insulted you?

I was talking about your point, and disagreeing with it.

For the record, nothing I said was directed at you personally.

I can see not liking the new edition, but the idea that Wizards is consciously trying to drive older fans away, that makes no sense to me.

You are abandoning the context of the term.
The point was that if WotC makes changes that lose old players but gain more new players, then that is a good move. And I agree 100% with that. If making changes that cause me to leave brings in 2 or 3 others then they should cause me to leave. That doesn't mean they WANT me to leave. But they go into with eyes wide open. Call it acceptable casualties, whatever. In the "fired" discussion before it was clear to me that the term was simply shorthand for that idea. Not that they want anyone to go, but knowing beforehand that some of the old base WILL go and going ahead anyway on the best guess that they are doing more good than harm to the market.

And in all honesty, I am completely ok with that, even if I go.

So yes, I found the tone of your post to be insulting and to be ignoring my actual point, and clearly directed at me.

Being ok with leaving so that more can come in may be fine. But I'm still quite comfortable expressing my opinion about what I would like and about changes that I don't think have a snowball's chance of actually enhancing the game base.

 

[WyzardWhately]

I started out running, man I want to say I was around ten or twelve, with this black-box boardgame looking thing I found in a Toys 'R Us. It only went up to fifth level, and it included a dungeon, where the PCs had been captured by Zanzer Tem.

It was the awesomest thing I had ever seen. But if someone had handed me a the PHB/DMG/MM, I doubt I would have known what to do with them. A basic set of some kind is not a bad idea, but I think it should be made as cheap as possible. So, y'know, the kids who actually need something like that can afford it.

A sample town in the DMG, I think, would not help this problem overmuch. Simply because a totally green DM and his group would have to wade through a LOT to get to it in the first place, and would maybe be pretty bamboozled by then. That said, everybody in the world has an internet connection now. Why not throw up a big damn 'Getting Started' Page on the internet? Include a link in the book. Toss a sample adventure up there, some sample characters, make it free. Think of it as a loss leader. They'll buy the real books eventually.

All this said? If the sample town is cool, I'd be okay with a few pages being spent on it. Could come in handy.

 

[Monkey Boy]

Sorry for the derail

Please.

And I find this whole "Wizards is firing their fans!" business to be really questionable, over-emotional hyperbole.

The idea of firing the customer base has some legitimacy. Erik Mona talks about a discussion at WOTC in 1999 where some folk thought it was a good idea. We discussed it here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=208750

 

[Henry]

...And I want to revisit Remathilis' question: Can someone tell me where this "Threshold" town came from, what product it originally appeared in? I'm seriously blanking, because I don't remember an Iconic town named "Threshold."

 

[BryonD]

Ah, it's anecdote time.

It occurs to me to ask for clarification.
Are you rejecting my claim that most gamers are distinctly either one or the other?

 

[Vigilance]

So yes, I found the tone of your post to be insulting and to be ignoring my actual point, and clearly directed at me.

Ah, it was the tone of my post, ok. Well I think you misinterpreted the tone of my post then.

I was strictly discussing your point.

And "fired" might be shorthand for the idea that players will leave, but I still contend that it's over-the-top hyperbolic shorthand.

Let's think about this. ANY CHANGES you make to a game will please some players and displease others.

Therefor, literally ANY CHANGE Wizards is making to D&D for 4e could be characterized as "firing the fanbase".

Yes, Wizards knows that some players will dislike what they're doing. And yes, they hope more will like it, and that they get some "lapsed" players from older editions, and increase the size of the book-buying market.

Again, this applies to any change in ANY game system, and is totally incompatible with the idea of "firing your fans".

If Wizards was going to have a default pantheon including Pikachu, was stocking the MM with licensed creatures from Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games, was adding "overdrive" feats out of DBZ, *THEN* you could make a case that they were attempting to jettison their old fan base in trade for a new one.

The stuff they're doing here isn't nearly to the level that I would call that a reasonable assertion.

As it is? Just looks like a new edition to me.

One that, I suspect, will be far, far closer to 3e than 3e was to 2e.

Chuck

 

[Monkey Boy]

Why not throw up a big damn 'Getting Started' Page on the internet? Include a link in the book. Toss a sample adventure up there, some sample characters, make it free. Think of it as a loss leader. They'll buy the real books eventually.

All this said? If the sample town is cool, I'd be okay with a few pages being spent on it. Could come in handy.

This is a good idea. I would take it a step further and include a set of quick start rules for free as a pdf download. The SRD is all well and good but it's not the same as some nice quickstart rules.